SPEAKER_00
Hello, and welcome to .edu, the higher education policy podcast from the American Council on Education. I'm your host, John Fansmith.
Later in this episode, we're going to hear from the very riveting Jose Antonio Vargas as we explore undocumented immigrants in the United States, DACA, and the DREAM Act. But first, I need to introduce my co-host, and there's a little, little excitement as we start season two and introducing my co-host. It's not Sarah Spreitzer who is joining me again.
No excitement in welcoming Sarah back. But the exciting news is a brand new co-host on the podcast. Mushtaq Gunja is joining us in a recurring co-podcast host role.
That's a terrible title. Anyway, better than my regular title. We'll change your business cards accordingly.
Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah. Thank you, John. Thank you, Sarah.
Really excited to be here.
SPEAKER_02
Do I get to react at all or express my excitement of also welcoming Mushtaq?
SPEAKER_00
Are you excited? I thought you had to express your excitement.
SPEAKER_02
I'm very excited to have him too, but I was just kind of shunted off to the side there, so I wasn't sure if I could jump in and also say welcome to Mushtaq. Good to see you.
SPEAKER_00
Good to see you. Thanks, Sarah. And Mushtaq, do you want to tell our listeners who may or may not be familiar with you already a little bit about yourself and what you do here at ACE?
SPEAKER_03
Sure. I hope that they are not familiar with me. I am the Chief of Staff here at ACE.
I've been here for a couple of years, and then before that, I was at Georgetown Law School. I was an assistant dean in academic affairs and an adjunct professor. I actually still teach at Georgetown.
I teach criminal justice. I teach evidence, some advanced criminal pro. Before that, I was at the Department of Education, where I was the Chief of Staff doing sort of higher ed policy.
So accreditation, student aid, the budget. So I was at the Department of Ed in the second term of the Obama administration from 2014 or so to the end of the administration. So happy to be here and happy to talk about all these exciting issues.
Oh, I'm a lawyer by training. I didn't say that. Hence the Georgetown Law.
SPEAKER_00
Might have been applied, but a good clarification. A lawyerly clarification.
SPEAKER_03
It's been seven years since I was in a courtroom, but I was a prosecutor in Baltimore and did that work for almost six years. So a lawyer to the extent that that's all helpful to this podcast.
SPEAKER_00
I think it is because we lost both of our PhD co-hosts, so we had to get a terminal degree in here somewhere. Sarah and I, not quite as academic, we accomplished. What is your master's in again, Sarah?
SPEAKER_02
Medieval archaeology. That's why it doesn't count. I think that should still count.
SPEAKER_00
Sarah and I have this discussion often about the merits of our respective master's degrees. Well, Moussak, we are very happy. Your lawyerly expertise and your other expertise, I think will be very valuable as we start the second season of the podcast.
Going forward, it's kind of an interesting time here in Washington, DC. There's not a lot happening. So a lot of the focus, obviously, is on the coming presidential election.
And a lot of things I think will be, that'll be happening in policy space, are going to be influenced or directly in response to that election. So less on the legislative side, but Sarah Moussak, things you think that are coming up that are worth noting for our listeners?
SPEAKER_02
Well, I think even though things may not be happening legislatively, I think that there's a lot of messaging going on. And as part of that, I think we're about to see a lot of proposed rules come out from the various agencies. So for my portfolio, definitely from the Department of Homeland Security for things impacting our international students.
We've heard that they may do duration of status changes to H1B visas. And I think all of that is things that this administration has promised to do. And now they are trying to push it out before the election.
SPEAKER_00
The reason they're doing that is?
SPEAKER_02
Well, I think it's just clearing the decks, right? They've been, they've been developed over the past four years. And now is the time to kind of push it out. It's a good, it sends a message to the president's base, but it's also to demonstrate that they are, they are working on those things that they promised during the campaign.
SPEAKER_03
You know, I think from, from my perspective, it feels like our colleges and universities are spending the majority of their time trying to weather their way through this pandemic, either on campus and trying to keep everybody, all of their students and staff, faculty, staff. Faculty safe or, you know, deliver high quality education, you know, virtually or some combination of both as many of our campuses are of course doing. And so it is a quiet time in Washington.
John, I wanted to ask you a question. Is it going to remain quiet? What do we see happening? You know, with a with another stimulus package is anything happening on the Hill or at the White House?
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I'm, I'm encouraged by the fact that at least on my issues, nothing is happening. Sarah looks like she'll have a busy fall, but I'm going to have what looks at least right now to be a pretty relaxing one, you know, from the higher ed perspective, the higher education act, we didn't really expect it to move forward this year, once the pandemic had and that certainly won't be happening in the fall. They're really the big thing that we had been hoping really wanted to happen and thought certainly during the summer would be happening was another emergency relief bill, the so called supplemental bills.
That seemed to have some momentum going really up until the beginning of August Republicans in the Senate waited about six weeks to start their work and by the time they did it really killed a lot of the momentum so there was a bill introduced or there will be a bill introduced today by some a group called the problem solvers caucus it's a group of bipartisan group of moderates from both sides. That was an attempt to split the difference between the White House slash congressional Republican position and congressional Democrat position, but just maybe an hour ago as we record this, all of the committee chairs of the relevant committees in the house, sent out a statement saying this was a half measure and it failed to meet the needs so doesn't look like that will solve anybody's problems might cause a few problems for leadership but certainly not solving problems and now all of the discussion really is, maybe we'll see something in the lame duck, but if it doesn't get done by the end of September, which is about two weeks away as we record this. It's not going to happen in October because everyone's campaigning so maybe something in the fall later in the fall.
Maybe it'll just get punted into a new administration if there is a new administration or the second term of the Trump administration.
SPEAKER_02
Well, and we still have to see this the continuing resolution the CR pass right to keep the government open past September 30th so I thought I read today that the speaker said the house is going to stay in session right John until they do something on coven relief. Yeah, is that an empty friend.
SPEAKER_00
Hard to believe but probably true I mean, it's one of those things where it makes for good messaging, but if the speaker is keeping her members in working in Washington as they head into a presidential election cycle. It's really punitive more to the moderate members who might be in districts that they really need to fight for rather than, you know, the base and it's not necessarily likely to produce any further action because it's going to take the White House's agreement that's not the kind of thing that's going to sway the White House so, especially in the house where the majority is pretty strong for Democrats already. So yeah, empty threat, probably.
SPEAKER_03
Sarah, what are you hearing about a shutdown are we looking at us. Another CR I mean where are you guys feeling about that.
SPEAKER_02
I think that would be a nightmare is for you for both parties this close to the election. I think they're likely operating under the idea that it's in their best interest pointed until after the election.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it's interesting because I think a lot of people thought they were going to try and do the emergency bill with a CR and the CR is a continuing resolution for people don't follow this stuff essentially just changes the deadline for federal funding which usually expires on September 30. If you don't do something it creates a shutdown which is what much talk referenced. So I think it's a pretty broad agreement both sides bipartisan that they're going to do a relatively clean CR meaning they're not going to add a lot of things to it change the funding too much, and push it into at least December maybe even into the next year.
And that's really because, you know, traditionally administrations get blamed for shutdowns so the Trump administration doesn't have a whole lot of interest heading into a, you know, the reelection and having that kind of chaos attributed to them. Likewise, Democratic leadership seems to think that they are headed towards very good electoral returns, and sees no reason to rock the boat and change that dynamic so both sides I think want to keep things pretty calm and pretty steady. But speaking of all these things going forward and Sarah you and I had the opportunity to have a very good conversation with Jose Antonio Vargas.
And that will be coming up in just a little bit but he talks very passionately very eloquently about the issues facing undocumented students and undocumented residents in the United States. You know, obviously this has been it was a huge campaign issue in 2016. It's certainly getting a lot of attention again this time around.
So, one thing regarding the policy each candidate has that you know we should be discussing we should be bringing forward things that really stand out to the two of you as you look at what their proposals are.
SPEAKER_02
So I think you know we already know kind of where the Trump administration is going I mean they ended the program in 2017 and then we saw a Supreme Court challenge to that action, which is kind of kept it on life support but but as it is now current recipients are going to be renewed for up to a year and they are not accepting any new registrations on the Biden campaign has made it clear that they will. They will keep DACA alive at least until Congress can can can put it into statute. And so that they have they have said that they would reverse the administration's decision on ending it and obviously Biden's coming from the Obama administration.
SPEAKER_00
And that put put DACA in place. So the key thrust of the Biden platform is everything Trump did we're going to reverse.
SPEAKER_02
Pretty much everything on the immigration side which a lot of stuff you know was done by executive order starting with the travel ban which was shortly after the inauguration and I think that we'll see a lot of the executive orders, reverse, at least for a start and then who knows I don't know if the Biden administration they've they've said that they're interested in doing some sort of comprehensive immigration reform. That's kind of the third rail for both Dems and Republicans I don't know if that's actually something that they could get done, but I think that the, at least the executive orders would be reversed.
SPEAKER_00
And their ability to do the legislation will probably depend on law too on what the composition of Congress looks like after the election.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that and that's that's what's what's caused problems with comprehensive immigration reform before the president Trump has said, sort of a lot of things about DACA at various times.
SPEAKER_03
Where is what's the latest with the president and how he's thinking about our students on our on our campuses.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean one of the things that I should say that the Trump administration when they did end DACA they actually allowed a six months kind of roll down of the program, giving Congress time to act and Congress was unable to pass legislation that would actually, you know, put put DACA into law. And so that's always been the Trump administration's argument is it's not so much that they object to the program per se it's that because it was originally set up as a policy and not done through Congress that Congress really needs to act. So that doesn't mean that I guess you know DACA, I think the idea of what we have for DACA now would go away under second term of the Trump administration but whether or not there would be legislative efforts to put something like DACA into into law, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_03
And Congress has certainly had the opportunity to pass something for for years and years now I mean both under Republican majorities now under Democratic House majority.
SPEAKER_02
I mean we've, we talked to Jose in our conversation that you know the DREAM Act has been around since 2001 and it's always had bipartisan support. So if you were to tell someone from another planet that this bill has been introduced since 2001 always had bipartisan support it doesn't make any sense about why it hasn't passed.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, so another planet. They may want to go back even the pandemic right now.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I was going to say they might have some other thoughts about our democracy as well if they're observing it at this moment in time but for those of our listeners who are interested in reading more about both DACA and dreamers and particularly if you want to get involved in advocacy around those issues. AC has worked with a number of other organizations to put together a website called remember the dreamers.org. Usually I spell these out that's pretty long title so I'm not going to spell it out but I will say it again remember the dreamers.org and has resources advocacy tools, lots of things to both get informed on the issue and if you so choose to take action as well.
As you mentioned this is going to be a big feature of the conversation we had with Jose Antonio Vargas. He is a fascinating person I'll just say we'll talk a little bit more obviously when we start the conversation but this is a man who has a won a Pulitzer Prize and been nominated for both an Emmy and a Tony, which I think is certainly a first for a dot edu guest and certainly an impressive slate, but truly is someone accomplished I think something on that people enjoy listening to that. So I think that's a great way to start the conversation.
If you have ideas for other topics or other guests that you'd like to give us, please send them to us at podcast at AC e n e t dot edu that's podcast at AC e n e t dot edu. So we have a lot of questions we like feedback. We're starting our second season so we're in a time where we're particularly open to feedback, and we'll feature any questions we get in on the podcast as well so it's a little encouragement get your, get your thoughts into us.
I'm a Moustach Sarah, I want to welcome you Moustach and thank you both for being here. We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with Jose Vargas. And welcome back.
We are joined as we mentioned earlier by our special guest today, Jose Antonio Vargas, and Jose is the founder of the nonprofit organization define American, as well as the author of the 2018 autobiographical memoir dear America and notes of an undocumented And I think we're just first of all thank you for joining us today Jose. Thank you so much for having me. And I should clarify as I often do by joining us I mean remotely via zoom we're not breaking any social distancing so everyone is safe and healthy here.
So, you know, I think we sort of tease the little bit of your story and, you know, your life and your work and the intro, but I thought this would be actually before we start getting into some of the policy discussions and some of the, you know, greater dive into the details of your work. It might be helpful for the audience to get a little bit of the background tells a little bit of your story and how you came to be where you are.
SPEAKER_01
So I was I'm from the Philippines. And if anybody's listening so when you see an Asian looking person with a Spanish name it means they're Filipino, for the most part there's 4 million of us in the United States. 2 million in California alone.
SPEAKER_00
So, earlier when you asked me to call you the Filipino. There's a lot of people that could apply to that's not just you.
SPEAKER_01
There's literally a chapter in my book called Filipino Jose Mexican Jose. That explains like, you know, immigration policy post 1965. So yeah, so I was born in the Philippines, and my mother sent me here when I was 12 sent me to the Bay Area where I am right now.
To live with my grandparents or parents both of whom were naturalized US citizens so I didn't think anything was wrong. And my mom didn't really explain you know I was 12 I was going to America. And then four years after I was sent after I lived here when I was a freshman in high school.
I found out that I was here illegally after I went to the BNB, which I later found out is how a lot of undocumented students find out, find out because they either go to the BNB, or they have to apply for a scholarship in high school or they you know some, the college school teachers asking for some sort of documentation like a social screening number or green card or whatever. So that's how I found out. In mind you this was 1997.
And this was the height of proposition 187. Are you right. I call prop 187 like the like the grandmother of all anti immigrant policies and like modern US history like in many ways to kind of set up where we are right now.
Right. So I just remembered, you know, during that time when students would actually and mostly Mexican American students because you know it was even back then it was incredibly racialized. And I thought to myself, Oh, this is nothing to do with me.
Right. Like I'm talking about an entire different group of mosaics. Yes. I'm Asian. I'm Filipino.
Like this is nothing the media, the radio state, you know, because again, for me the best way to learn to speak English and write English is to consume a lot of media. So I consumed everything right. Okay. And all the media ever said was this was about Mexican people and it's about about the border. So that was the context of how I found out.
And so 1997 1998 was really the year when that that whole year of trying to figure out, no, what do I do. So I can't apply for college and I remembered, you know, I remembered thinking to myself, so who do I tell this to. And the first person I told it to was like my best friend at the time was still like a really one of my best friends, Arvin, who was the guy who drove me around like driving this daisy and he was the guy who was like, Hey, try to get a driver's license, right.
And so then when I went to the DMV then found that I was here illegally that I told Arvin and I'll never forget because it was the first time I realized that whenever I told someone this, I was burdening them with the information.
SPEAKER_00
It's really interesting.
SPEAKER_01
Right. I mean, I'm puzzled they can't solve. So since we were like 16 years old, you know, Arvin and I are both approaching 40 soon.
I have always been a problem that he's been trying to like take care of.
SPEAKER_02
Well, and I assume like when you're 16 right, and you're talking with your friends you're starting to talk about college and like what you want to do after high school and then that's obviously going to completely, you know, color the entire conversation.
SPEAKER_01
And for me, you know, I remember this was the SAT time right like some freshman sophomore year's SAT prep time. So I just remembered, why would I go do that like what's the point. And then I remember thinking that I was here illegally because I don't have the right social security number and the right visa.
So then I didn't want my existence to be associated with any numerical anything. So I was like well F the SATs.
SPEAKER_00
I just wanted to basically opt out of the system entirely.
SPEAKER_01
I want it. But then again, whenever I wanted to do that. It was my high school principal and the high school superintendent who ended up finding about me because of the principal who was like wait a second so we can't solve this we can't figure this out so then my principal started telling other teachers all very discreetly about the situation and then there was a point when they're all trying to figure out do we just adopt him.
So again, I'm a problem that people were trying to solve right with the best of intentions but adopting you seems pretty drastic. Well, but you know but I guess they, and I was really lucky, you know, my new I grew up in Mountain View, which at the time was a predominantly you know it was it was already changing practically but you know it was an affluent community of a lot of tech workers like the kind of the kind of the first generation, many ways of Silicon Valley workers right so it was affluent it was white they had means. Right, and they could take care of me, and they did.
Right, and so they were the ones that was figuring out what are the other options. Right.
SPEAKER_02
And we were very lucky I think Jose to have that community obviously because I think there's a lot of people who unfortunately haven't had that kind of support and it's interesting that you talk about it's back in 1997 because I, you know, you think about the dream act and we talked a bit about this earlier planning for this podcast that it was 2001 when it was first introduced right and it seems so long ago how can we have been talking about this for over 20 years and still not have the solution and I guess this is something that you've been living for a long time. Can you talk a bit about the difference that you see from when you kind of discovered your status to now and kind of that older generation of dreamers and the new generation of dreamers that are here.
SPEAKER_01
Well, I would say which is why I'm, you know, like bringing up 187 proposition 187 which is, you know, you can tell the history of California through proposition 187 and how much has changed right in some ways. We are living through the proposition 187 era when it comes to policies in some ways it is depressing and frustrating to understand that the same kind of narrative systems that were in place that we're fighting against now we're already in place back in the mid to late 1990s and that people still think of this as a border issue. Right. And, and, and someone got elected president by making this a border Mexican issue. Right, it was not a surprise that the first thing Donald Trump talked about when he, you know, down that escalator when he when he announced he was running for president was about Mexico and the border and the wall and the rapists and all those people.
Right, that's not a surprise. And I think about that in the context of what 35 million Mexican Americans in this country, many of whom have been here, you know, before there was a United States of America. And the reality is the great majority of Mexican Americans in this country are us born citizens so the racializing of this issue that hasn't changed.
But I think part of what's changed is the demographics of the issue. Right, like the fastest growing undocumented population are coming from Asia, right, India, Korea, India, Korea, South Korea, the Philippines, China. Right, just yesterday I was talking to two undocumented Indian students.
And so that has changed. And since I was born 1981, the population of black immigrants in America has increased five times. Right. So the undocumented black black population has has is pretty sizable, and given this black lives matter reckoning that we're having right now, you know, black immigrants, right, are really in really the tightest spot of all immigrant groups, because of systematic racism and because of, in many ways there aren't as many resources available, right to black immigrants, there's there aren't as many organizations for example,
SPEAKER_00
right, because it's relatively recent.
SPEAKER_01
And I think that and I think again, because people think of this as a Latinx issue. Right, I still have to keep reminding people that I'm Asian, all the time, not because I don't, you know, I mean, in some ways, I've become like an honorary Latino, which is great because of the support of like the Latinx community. But I have to keep reminding people that, you know, the reality is, this is not only a Latinx issue, right.
So, but part of what I think has changed is the demographics and then the technology. You could argue that dreamers, in many ways, are the first, you know, youth movement in America that was born out of social media. Right. And born, I mean, I still remember, I don't know if you all remember like the marches that happened in 2006. Right. And that that were led by text messaging. Yeah. And like, that was like the first kind of text messaging social movement that was led by a lot of young immigrants who then of course started using Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. And, and I remind people this because I think it's really important to remember that back then, kind of the elder dreamer generation that I belong to, we didn't have any of this, we couldn't find each other there were no resources there's there were no resources there was no language.
There were no organizations that would publicly support us. So that for me is just a reminder that as bad as it is right now. Just remember that at least we actually have the resources and the means to find each other.
And to build community.
SPEAKER_02
I guess so, so demographics changing kind of the the advocacy tools that we use are changing. Do you think that there's anything about the public perception that's changing because you look at prop 187 right and now I think of California is being one of those places that's incredibly supporter supportive overall of dreamers. Right. And we see that in the higher education system and and obviously the University of California system was one of the groups to lead the case that went to the Supreme Court in support of of our of our
SPEAKER_01
of our docket and our dreamers. So is it do you see any shifts in public perception or any changes there. Absolutely.
I mean I mean look like I mean the the DREAM Act even though it hasn't passed even though you know I think I was joking the other day and did the DREAM Act is like a freshman college. Right. It's graduated high school is now a freshman in college. 19 years old.
19 years old. Right. And pole. There isn't a poll that's been published that doesn't say that the majority of Americans support dreamers.
Right. We have been seeing a great majority of polls that support a pathway to citizenship and legalization for undocumented immigrants. So we know that that that the and again I always as a former political reporter part of the question here too is like how these polls are the public is actually behind us.
The problem is even though the public is behind us this is not considered a priority. Right. Like there was there was a study done right after President Trump was elected among immigrant rights groups and funders who fund immigrant rights work and among progressives immigration is doesn't even crack the top five of concerns of progressives in this country. Right. Well like number six or number seven. So our base is not as big or not as strong.
People of course are you know of course are sympathetic and empathetic to you know separation of families which by the way was happening in the Obama administration but not to the extent that Trump is happening right. All of that. For the most part the base is not as strong and as big as we need it to be.
I have to say though given that we're on this podcast are consistently from the very beginning of the DREAM Act you know journey educators right teachers have consisted a big part of that base however however relatively small it may be.
SPEAKER_02
And you talked a bit about the impact that the educators had on you and and the fact that they were trying to help you. You know I think one of the things that has changed is more people have come forward and you know registered for DACA or made it known. There have been more resources right so there's more there's more things that if a student were to go to a high school principal and say I want to apply for a college but I just found out that that you know I I qualify for DACA I'm a dreamer.
That they that they would be able to say okay here are the colleges that would offer financial aid institutional aid here are the states that would allow you to come in and get in state tuition.
SPEAKER_01
That type of thing do you see I mean do you see dreamers taking advantage of those resources. Oh yeah I mean of course and also I would have to say like you know here's the dream that us right I'm on the advisory board of dream that us which is now I think they're up to 6500 scholars.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, then they were one of our close partners at a to e specifically on our remember the dreamers.org website.
SPEAKER_01
Yes, please everybody by the way if you haven't seen the website check it out. It's incredibly accessible and helpful. And then there's a group of golden door scholars is another one that people should check out that's that was founded in in the south, mostly South Carolina North Carolina announced opened up to to to the rest of the country.
There's a group that when I first started doing this work when I first started researching okay how do I, you know, do this work right like what do I really need to know. And then at the time called educators for fair consideration, which basically became like a network before FC became a network of teachers, high school college instructors that were networking with each other how do we support dreamers. And now, given that dreamers are you know the dream back as 19 years old that group is actually renamed itself to immigrants rising.
So check it out immigrants rising and it's all about thinking post college and how to become how how to be entrepreneurs.
SPEAKER_00
And we'll put links to all those organizations on the show notes for this episode to as well just so people listening can find that easily as well.
SPEAKER_01
And so I totally cut you off there was helpful. And there's just, there's absolutely more resources right, and I have to say though I have to say that even just yesterday, I was just going to call yesterday a friend, you know, has, has befriended this 20 year old young man, who works construction, who came here from Honduras when he was in high school, and he's wondering if he qualifies for the dream act of a call for for DACA got him on the phone last night, and realized that you know, he didn't think high school was for him, he didn't feel welcome. He's in Southern California.
And so he dropped out freshman year, and has worked construction ever since. So he's asking me do I qualify for DACA and I'm like, well, you're going to need at least a GED, you know, and you need to like, and then I could hear from the sound of his voice, we couldn't zoom that I could hear kind of the deflation right and I said, wait a second, like, if college is not your thing, there are other things. Right. Like, if my high school principal, if Pat Highland hadn't said, okay, we're going to find a different way. So then they found this venture capitalist who went for who started a scholarship fund I was the first recipient that didn't ask for immigration status.
If she hadn't intervened, I would not have gone to college, pure and simple. But guess what most people don't have that kind of intervention. Right. So when I was talking to this young man last night I was thinking, okay, well we can, we can set you up so you know if you want to take your GED, I can, I can help you figure that out. I have people in that area that can help you figure that out.
And I could sense that he, you know, that he was discouraged and I said, but he goes, you know, I really love construction. I'm really good at it. And you know, I even trained out to be in the, to be in an electrician.
And I'm thinking to myself, that's amazing. So maybe you can start your own business. That's the other thing, by the way, so undocumented immigrants can start our own businesses.
Right. That's one way that's part of a part of immigrants rising right like how do you train undocumented entrepreneurs. In some ways being in this condition can force us to become more entrepreneurial and some ways for me is the only way I can actually make a living is to be my own boss.
SPEAKER_02
And, you know, all of those resources and kind of people trying to figure out those, those, those non traditional paths or how to figure out this for these very complicated things. I'm betting that's all been made more complicated by COVID-19.
SPEAKER_01
Yes. Although I have a little, I have kind of a spin on this. This mental health is really important.
And I'm, you know, I'm, I was seeing, you know, in like late March, what was happening, even among like, you know, Instagram has become really the way for me to kind of get in touch with everybody with all the DACA documented folks that I've been mentoring, you know, for years now and the people that I admire. And I, you know, we got on a zoom private call a few months ago now. And I started talking about the fact that wait a second, we're undocumented people.
We've been social distancing for like forever.
SPEAKER_02
It's an interesting way to look at it. Wait a second.
SPEAKER_00
You should thrive in this environment is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01
What is it? What are you saying? Oh, we can't go somewhere. We can't go do something. Isn't that our lives? Isn't adapting to change and being flexible, right? Looking for doors to, you know, windows to open when doors are closed.
Isn't that what we've made of ourselves? So think of this as an opportunity where you kind of lean in on that, you know,
SPEAKER_00
Oh, goes hand in hand with what you're saying about entrepreneurial spirit to finding other paths and finding ways forward.
SPEAKER_01
And using using instead of because I mean, look, like I can, I can, for example, talk about the fact that I haven't seen my mother since I was 12 and that I have a sister who when I left her, she was to she's about to be 30. I can, I can focus on the fact that I don't have that physical relationship with them. But instead of I've transferred, I'm trying, of course, nothing is going to replace that.
But that's why I'm really big on mentorship. Right. Like I think of these young DACA meant to folks that I mentor as like in many ways, I hope I can look at my sister when I finally see her and said, I maybe I wasn't the brother that you needed me to be but I was trying to be that older brother to all these other kids that I could be with, you know, that I could physically be in this way. So that right, like so instead of thinking of this as like what the sad box are thinking of them is like okay so what are the opportunities here, you know how can I make something out of this.
SPEAKER_00
People who are listening to this can't see your face as you talk about this but certainly when you talk about taking on the mentorship role, you know, I just watching you on zoom like the way your face lights up it's clear the sort of the power the passion you bring to that and I think it's this podcast is aimed at higher education leaders and you've talked about all the work you've done, you know, taken on so much to help others who are in the same situation you were in or are in I should say. What should our campus leaders be doing what should they be like, obviously the sort of mentorship is something that's, you know, would be an amazing role to fulfill but obviously they also have the ability to do things systemically on campuses. What are the kind of things if you could sit down with the college president you would tell them, you know, step one step to step three here's how you make this inclusive and welcoming.
SPEAKER_01
Well, I guess I have to say that you know I am I am Catholic by colonization, but I if there's one thing that I'm religious about its mentorship. I find that to be, I literally would not be where I am without it. It's been its own passport.
It's like a green card that doesn't have an expiration date. It's a way in many way for me, what I have been a beneficial of what I benefited from is exactly what I'm trying to make sure other people benefit from is that if freedom can't come from this government and it has to come from other means and it can come from mentors, right.
SPEAKER_00
So until such a time as we can get it from our government.
SPEAKER_01
So for me, that has to be a part of how we think of how how dreamers and how DACA recipients are a part of our campus in our community, right. But let me kind of think back a little bit. Step back a little bit more which is that we're in a scenario where you have a government that's openly actually not following the law.
Right.
SPEAKER_01
In many ways, right. In many ways, you know, they've said that, you know, they've now decreased DACA from two years to one year. They have now said that they're not taking any DACA applications.
If President Trump is reelected, I think we can see the end of DACA. So now the question is, in the same way that this this has forced students and immigrants and immigrant families to be adaptable and flexible. How adaptable and flexible are universities and colleges.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it's a good question.
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that's the thing. Like I have, I have made a career in a life out of a gray area. Not for us, black and white doesn't really exist.
We have to dance in a legal gray area all the time. So I'm curious, you know, for the for presidents and leaders of universities and colleges who are listening, like, what does that mean for you? Like what, like, what is that uncomfortability of, okay, are we allowed to do that? Right. Meaning again, this is where the difference between the law and justice, like what is the law, but what is just right? Like what are you answering to exactly.
So there's that big question that I would, I would challenge all of us. And by the way, I'm challenging myself on this as well. Right. So what is that big question. And then out of that, given what we know about DACA, right.
I remember, for example, when the dream that us, which I'm a part of, when Don Graham, who was my previous boss, he was the owner and publisher of the Washington Post, if you would have told me that Don Graham would be the, the, the single largest, you know, provider of college scholarships for undocumented people, I would, I just, it's incredible. I remember the conversation we had a few months ago when, when the dream that us decided that they were going to open the scholarships to people who don't qualify for DACA. All right.
That was a big one. Yeah. Right. That was a big shift.
SPEAKER_00
And I'm stepping beyond that dreamer community.
SPEAKER_01
Right. So, but what does that mean? Right. What does that mean for colleges? I know that there are some colleges, especially here in California, I have to say, by the way, a lot of the work, there was one of my favorite education reporters is Teresa Watanabe at the LA Times, you know, and there was that article a few months ago that she published.
I'm reading it was right in front of me. And historic shift Latinos are the leading group of prospective freshmen accepted into University of California for fall 2020. Right. Part of the systems largest and most diverse first year class ever admitted. So it was, it was Latinx students 36% then Asian students at 35%.
So now, in California, this is right, the reality Latinx people and Asian people together make up the majority of the state. Right. And in this, and in this time, I'm curious, what universities and colleges outside and in California and outside of California. How are we talking about race and identity to our students.
How are we connecting the dots between immigrant rights and racial justice. This is something that students and their families are living with every day. And I think universities and colleges have a role to play in that conversation.
You are a part of that community.
SPEAKER_02
Well, when you're talking about, you know, colleges being flexible, it's interesting because john and I, on previous podcasts, you know, we've, we've talked a bit to university leaders that have like kind of created these different pathways that work for their college. So for instance, the Colorado Mountain College, which created this income share agreement, basically for loans that students could take out, because they don't qualify for federal student loans. We've seen other universities go out and do a big fundraising campaign, right, to come up with some institutional funds, you know, for the students because they can't access, you know, the federal student aid programs and so, you know, I think, I think higher ed has been trying to be very creative as much as as much as they can be but I just think that that's a real that's yet another hurdle that we're asking these young people right to jump through because it's different, depending on the institution you look at and depending on the state that you look at and so that's, it's still very very, I think problematic.
SPEAKER_01
I mean, but I have to say, I just think, at least the undocumented students that I talked to DACA or without DACA, I feel like they're, again, this is part of our identity and existence right to be adaptable. And some ways universities and colleges have an opportunity to actually do that with us to be in line with us on that. And how, how can we find more creative ways to make this work.
To the point, for example, where you know when people say you can't employ or like, I remember even like graduate students right or like the or the nature of what qualifies as work. Right, that's a big one. Right, like, and especially with international students to that's a whole part of this conversation as well is, you know, I remember, I guess I used to travel a lot more allows to travel, and I would meet so many international students who are like, I want to stay.
Do you suggest that I just overstay my visa. Yeah. And of course I'm like, okay, have you talked to a lawyer. I'm usually the number one.
Right. I'm not a lawyer. Right. Because like just because I'm public and visible about what I am doesn't mean I'm not asking you to do the same like you've come out of two closets in my life, and I don't force anybody to get out of any closet until they are ready to do it. Like you got to go do it.
Yeah. So, but I was really struck at how for many international students that that, you know, that pay a lot to our systems right like in talk to the schools. What are the options for them.
And what are the options is, Oh, it's either I become a professional student because that's the only way I can stay in the country but I can't work. Right, or I'm forced to just overstay my visa. And I can tell you how many conversations I had, by the way, all across the country, especially in the Midwest, interestingly enough.
SPEAKER_02
And unfortunately, those interesting. Yeah, and those paths are narrowing, obviously, you know, whether you know whoever you're talking to so that's a, that's a,
SPEAKER_01
a difficult conversation. Yeah. And in terms of again, like what what colleges, universities and leaders of school can do is how do we treat this issue, not as like a slice of a pie but actually part of the pan. Meaning, you know, we're, we're living at a time and this is for me and this is really big with our work at Define American.
We can't think of DACA recipients as just one small slice of a population. They're a part right so there are 45 million immigrants in this country today 40 according to Pew, right, an independent nonpartisan research group. There are 45 million immigrants in this country, 45 million, 11 a million who were undocumented, and within that are the DACA recipients.
And in the next 50 years, according to Pew, the 45 million immigrant population, mostly Latinx, mostly Asian black Caribbean immigrants will constitute for 88% of the total US population growth in the next 50 years.
SPEAKER_00
And I saw a study recently that said that with in the next 20 years with the graduation rates of Latinx students from high school, there'll be the majority population on college campuses as well so it's that looking long term it's in higher interest to be understanding of these communities and building those bridges now.
SPEAKER_01
And Latinx students, you know, with our families, right, like this young man that I was talking with last night, right, the mom, the mom is also undocumented, the youngest brother is a US citizen because he's born here. It's incredibly complicated. So our lives are crocheted together.
And I think we have to start looking at these issues as being crocheted. They're all interconnected. And this is what intersectionality, you know, as a concept is really about and now but what does that mean with the way we talk about the issue, and how we not separate it from the rest.
Right. I think for me that's incredibly important. I have to say by the way, the 45 million immigrant population that happened because of the 1965 Immigration Nationality Act, right, which would not have gotten passed if black people were not fighting for their rights in 1964.
So you could actually make a very credible historical argument that immigrants are here in this country because of what black people fought for. So this is where the intersection of the black mass matter movement and the immigrants movement is right there.
SPEAKER_00
So that's a really good note to end our conversation for today. And I think there is many different ways we could keep going with this conversation and just from talking to you in prep for this and today I know you have a million things going on including all of those people you are helping to get back to so we don't want to take up too much of your time but I do, Jose, really want to thank you for coming on joining us, you know, and talking about your experience and your views. I think our listeners are really appreciative.
So thanks for joining us today.
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much for having me I have to say one last thing. Of course, I, there's, I'm going to drag Graham Green into this conversation, the novelist Graham Green said that in every childhood there comes a moment when a door opens and lets the future in. For me, like that is the role of educators, like and no politics or policy, right, in my opinion that role transcends politics and policies.
So,
SPEAKER_00
and your experience has been, I was going to say your experience has been testimony to that and that you had educators who open those doors so thank you again for coming on. It's a beautiful thought and a great place to end the conversation for now. Thank you for having me.
Thanks Jose. To listen to earlier episodes and subscribe to dot edu. You can find us on Apple podcast, Stitcher, Google, and other websites.
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