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SPEAKER_01
I also still have a project that I've been working on with Ludwig this past year. We're making an Amaranth fleshlight, so.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking about. We're doing that too. That was the idea that I was thinking about.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah. Nailed it. I feel like I can rule the world.
I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off on a road. Let's travel, never looking back.
SPEAKER_03
All right, what's up? We just had Kate, also known as Amaranth, on the podcast. She is, I think, the number one creator on OnlyFans. She has made over $30 million on OnlyFans in like two years.
So it's kind of insane what she's done, building up a following and then turning that into, like, I don't know, she's probably one of the top earners on social media, period. And most people don't know about her or ever heard of her.
SPEAKER_02
Sam, what'd you think? Did any of the stats that she said surprise you or shock you?
SPEAKER_03
Well, I had heard the money part out before this, which is why I was interested. She reached out to us to be like, hey, can I come on the pod? And so I was down for it for that. That's the most shocking number.
The other part that was shocking was just that she was pretty nonchalant about it.
SPEAKER_02
I was pretty surprised at how sophisticated her empire is. She talks about how she's now offering the service. She basically built this media empire, and now she's offering it as an agency to other women.
And she kind of dismissed it as like, yeah, just this small thing. And I have a feeling it's significantly bigger than the energy that she was giving out. And I find that to be incredibly fascinating.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I think she's kind of a killer in terms of how she's done it, right? How she built her brand. I mean, she's basically like, OK, Kim Kardashian built a mega brand kind of doing this stuff and has turned it into a TV show and all kinds of other things. But in the social media world, she's kind of like on that level.
She's pretty A-list in the world of social media in terms of how many social media people can pull in tens of millions of dollars a year.
SPEAKER_02
There's very, very few. With a five-person staff.
SPEAKER_03
With a small team behind them. And not even in a category where you're getting mainstream brand deals from whoever, like Coca-Cola or whatever.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it was really fascinating. So hope you guys enjoy it.
SPEAKER_03
Hi, Caitlin. Welcome to the show. You are one of the most interesting potential guests that I've wanted on the show.
We've had people who made money in different ways. We've had poker players. We've had business people.
We've had athletes. We've had comedians. But we've never had somebody who is a sort of like a social media entertainer slash only fan star.
And the hook, I would say, for people who want to be interested in this episode is, I think you've made something like, do I have the number like 30 million dollars through only fans and like your other kind of platforms where people subscribe to you?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that's just not only fans, though.
SPEAKER_03
But yes, just not only fans. What is the do you have like a total number that's even more impressive? Oh, God, I haven't really looked in a while. But maybe like 40 million or something like that.
SPEAKER_01
Something like that potentially. Well, fine. Fine. Not the only fans is like way more lucrative than every other platform. Because even the only fans, competitors are either like too new or in Patreon's case, like driving away the girls.
SPEAKER_03
So and are you the number one person on only fans?
SPEAKER_01
I was for a while. I'm not really sure what it is right now. I haven't looked since I was.
I just put it in my go. I'm going to put that on my link tree that I could just stop looking at it. But maybe it's been growing a lot lately.
SPEAKER_02
What's customer churn like? Will they stay for do measure churn by years or months?
SPEAKER_01
I think just by month. We don't really look at the whole year because people's lives, you know, some people get girlfriends, some people will just like not have a job anymore. So it's hard to do like a year because hardly anyone stays on for a year.
A very small percentage.
SPEAKER_03
And one of the things that's cool about you is, A, you're open about the business side of things, which is cool. You don't have to be. You chose to be.
So I'm curious. Why did you decide? All right, I'm going to be able to I'm going to share this because I think it brings a lot of attention good and bad. Probably bring some haters out there who are out raids that somebody's making over a million dollars a month on only fans.
Why did you decide to go public with your your income and your earnings?
SPEAKER_01
Well, it's going to sound kind of weird, I guess, to most people, because I didn't do it for like pride or anything like that. It's it's really because my Instagram that had like five million followers over that a little bit got banned from mass reports. And I needed a way for people to still write about me because that was my biggest reach.
And so everything else was not nearly as much reach. So I just started writing about the business stuff, knowing that people would write about it. If it comes from a pretty girl talking about business suddenly, oh, she's a genius.
But if it's a guy saying the same thing, no one would care.
SPEAKER_03
So that's true. OK, I like that. That's a that's I think a fair call out.
So you basically published that and then other people started like news outlets and started re-aggregating the story. And then that drove new subscribers, basically. So it was like it was a growth channel for you.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was like, you know, a new form of earned media.
SPEAKER_03
Wow. OK, that's great. And so I have a bunch of questions to say.
I want you to jump in before I just sort of, you know, go down my my list of like things I've probably wanted to ask you because I've seen you. I worked at Twitch by company got acquired by Twitch. I was at Twitch and I was like, all right, so who's who's killing it? Who's doing great? And you were always at the top of the list and nobody inside the company would really like talk about it that much.
Whereas they give like, you know, they get really excited about certain things because it's like really good feel good stories or, you know, it's a game that they play that they're really excited about. And I was like, well, what about her? She's doing great. Like, what is this over here?
SPEAKER_01
I'm doing great.
SPEAKER_02
But do and your name. How do you pronounce it?
SPEAKER_01
It's pronounced Amaranth.
SPEAKER_02
In this setting, that's how you like to be addressed to.
SPEAKER_01
Loose on the case. Or just as. Kate.
SPEAKER_02
Okay. Much easier. Yeah. I didn't know what you preferred. So when you are going to these like meetings because I imagine like a like at YouTube and Twitch and all these places, I imagine they have like an account manager or something that like courts you and says, hey, Kate, you know, we love what you're doing.
You want to come to the office if you happen to be in town and we can like tell you some best practices. I mean, that's what they do for like a Casey Neistat or whoever on YouTube. When they do things like that for you or first of all, do they even do that? And if they do and you go to the office, are these like people, these corporate people, like comfortable having conversations about this type of shit? I mean, that's just like it because it's just like a, it's such a unique, I don't know.
It's just like unique. I don't often talk to people who are making a living this way.
SPEAKER_01
Oh man. I don't get any of that. So nobody really really to the office.
SPEAKER_03
No, really? Do you know the owner of Onlyfans is a big fan of the podcast and so he's going to listen to this and so maybe maybe he could invite you to the office and start giving you the white glove treatment that like probably a Twitch or a YouTube or whoever is maybe a little more hesitant to do.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, maybe. Wait, so how many followers do you have on Twitch? Like six million. And they don't like reach out to you and be like, Hey, we just want to say thank you for like being part of our platform.
Like here's a T shirt or like, like, you don't get any shit.
SPEAKER_03
Hey, please make this, please make your skirt two inches longer to comply with the latest terms of condition.
SPEAKER_01
That would be nice. Really, they just ban people and they don't tell you why. So you don't know what to change.
They'll just suspend you.
SPEAKER_03
So Sam, Sam doesn't watch Twitch. So let me just describe this. You're kind of like an innovator on Twitch and I say that laughingly because like it's Twitch and like, let's not take it all too seriously.
But like there's this trend where I think they call it hot tub streaming basically. It's like, yeah, I saw that. It's like, what's an excuse to kind of like wear like a bikini and be on stream, which is like, you know, going to get you a bunch of viewers and like subscriptions on Twitch, but also in your case, like get you a bunch of people who want to go down the funnel and go to your, maybe your only fans or whatever.
And I don't know if you were the first, were you like kind of the first to start doing that or did you just like make it more popular?
SPEAKER_01
Well, it's complicated because I started doing pool streams outside, you know, like a year or two before that, then girls started doing hot tub blow up like inflatable hot tubs. I think I was the first one to bring it inside my room and I've really popularized that one.
SPEAKER_03
And then there's like this like outrage and people are like, you got to shut this down. And it's usually like people on the platform who feel like, oh, it's taking away views for me, which I think is kind of silly because it's like, those people weren't going to watch you. You know, it's not like this.
People come to get the type of entertainment they want and they may not want to watch you, you know, in your basement playing like, you know, Dragon Ball Z or whatever. So it's like, it's a different thing, but there is this like outrage around it. Do you respond to that? Or how do you, how do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01
You know, I think it's just people being jealous of others having success and it's just placing blame on them instead of looking in the word and being like, oh, what could I improve to make my stream more appealing to people? And so they just want to point fingers at you or why I'm not successful when really we're, if we're not taking away views from gamers, certainly not. If anything, we're taking away views from Pornhub, but that's about it.
SPEAKER_03
And how big of a, how big of a game changer was OnlyFans for you? So I'm looking at your OnlyFans. I think you started, I think you posted, you started April 2020. Only two years ago and the first month you did 74,000 in OnlyFans, then you did 31,000, 16,000, 6,000, something like that.
So you started off with a big spike because you get a bunch of people to come over and then, you know, but you did really well right off the bat. A, were you expecting that? And B, had you like kind of already made it, was that like not that big of a deal compared to what you were already doing at Twitch or was that a game changer?
SPEAKER_01
I think it was probably somewhere in the middle. It was kind of what I expected just because like that's, you know, how platforms happen. I already had Patreon before, which was similar, but Patreon was kind of pissing people off and changing what they allowed on their platform.
So OnlyFans was like becoming the patron replacement for a lot of people. So I just kind of like acquired that as well. I didn't jump ship because I still have my Patreon.
So I just have both now and not even have a fansly, but it wasn't really like that shocking, I guess at first because I was already seeing those kinds of numbers on Patreon and a pretty decent amount on Twitch at that time.
SPEAKER_02
How big is your team? Or is it just you?
SPEAKER_01
I mean, how do you? No, I have an entire staff of mixture of like personal assistants, video editors, photographers, etc. So right now in the office, I have like five main people. And then I also have my extended staff that I kind of bounce back and forth between here in the office because they work also with me on real work, my agency for like, oh, I've got editors and fans, etc.
, like different girls and guys or some guys on there too. So yeah, I have like an extended staff and I have like my immediate at my house is usually four to five people always.
SPEAKER_02
Do you consider yourself like the CEO of the business or do you have like a straight person like a like a by the book person who's like making sure everything's running on time or are you that person?
SPEAKER_01
I guess I could technically be called the CEO, but I don't manage it as much day to day as like my head staff that I have my managing directors for it.
SPEAKER_03
So we got to know Mr. Beast recently. We went to that we like had an event and we had we had him on the pod and he's a obviously super impressive guy and he gets this like kind of amazing coverage in the news.
Everything is like Mr. Beast and he's a good dude, but like the coverage is like pretty much exclusively good. Obviously there's some haters, you know, always, but like people think he's amazing.
Business people really respect him for his like business acumen and he's, you know, seen as one of the biggest content creators. But I would say your franchise is right up there with him. If you just took, if you just took the sort of like the face off the business, if I just showed you the P and L of both businesses, I think you would be like, well, I want her P and L, right? Because you're making almost as much money with way less expenses with way less staff and overheads, probably with more valuable customers, more loyal customers.
And then on top of that, you're like the moves you're making off your streams or off your off your platforms where you've got the agency and then you've got the, you know, all your investments and stuff like that. It's just like what he's doing with his agency and his investments and all that. But I feel like you don't get that same coverage or if you do, it's like, could you believe this? She's doing like, you know, real business things.
Like how does that, do you agree with my assessment there and how do you feel about
SPEAKER_01
that? Yeah, I guess the main difference is the platform that I'm doing it on because OF is already going to have like a bias behind it. People don't want to admit that they pay attention to it, even if they do. And then Twitch also was a smaller, much smaller platform than YouTube.
So it just doesn't have the same amount of reach, even if it's like the same model and the same like type of stuff. It just doesn't reach nearly as many people as like his YouTube channel would.
SPEAKER_03
How big do you think this gets? So like, I don't know what you're doing annually now, but maybe it's like, found a 15 million or something like that. How big do you think that this, this can get and how big do you want it to get?
SPEAKER_01
By this, which, which platform are you?
SPEAKER_03
Your business, your overall business. The empire. The empire.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. I don't know. And then successfully grow real work, be like, you know, manage other girls accounts.
It can potentially grow like a huge network. And that's kind of like in my extended empire, but me by myself, I don't know. I never even thought I'd get you this far.
So it kind of just happens really quickly, especially once pandemic started. Everyone was just online all the time. So I'm not really sure.
SPEAKER_02
Well, when you're, when you're laying in bed at night and you're like, I mean, when I go to bed at night, I'm like, man, like that was like, I had a good day, whatever. It's really inspiring. I dream of, I think I, I think I could do this.
I think I could like do this one thing that's like crazy. And I just think like, well, in 10 years, maybe this little thing could be this, this and this. What do you imagine? Like what's your dream, even if it's outlandish to say sometimes or maybe it's not, I don't know.
But like what's your dream on where you want to take your, your career?
SPEAKER_01
Well, hopefully the dream would be to not grind as much for the next like year to three years and just to kind of stream part time, like a few days a week, maybe. And then I just have my empire for real work have grown so much. Maybe we have like 50 to 100 OF creators that we just kind of provide virtual assistance for.
And then I, my legacy kind of lives on through that. And then I don't feel like I have to grind every day and can just work with animals on stream a few days a week. It's really fun.
SPEAKER_03
And explain what real work is. So this is like an agency you started. It's not, from what I understand, it's not a talent agency.
It's we can like the system you built with your back office, with your assistants and with those people, you offer that as a service basically to other only fans, creators who don't have that back office. But like, I guess describe.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I guess it would be like virtual assistance, like a team put together that other creators can have access to where they will help like edit your content, post your content, market it, like write up descriptions and push sales on your platforms and stuff. And then occasionally like I do events where I have girls from the agency come over and we stream together, we collab, et cetera. So it's kind of like helping others grow and then managing that growth to provide like more efficient sales across their platforms.
SPEAKER_02
Let's say that like I couldn't afford to hire your team. And I just said, but is there like just like a handful of bullet points that you could tell me on how to have a successful page like you do? Like what are the, what are the like one, five, 10 bullet points that you would say, well, do this, do this, do this, do this, do this?
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think if you want to grow, you really do need to. You need help, whether that's just like your friends, maybe if you have like a really cool sibling family, someone close enough to you or they can physically come over and help you with shoots, help you get your content out there, like edited, posted, et cetera. Cause if you want to grow, you also have to be putting out like content on public non shadow band platforms like Twitter, YouTube, TikTok is huge right now.
TikTok is really easy to grow on compared to the other ones right now. Twitch actually isn't that great for growth unless you have other platforms already. I would save Twitch for last if you're even contemplating it because it has no discovery system that makes any sense.
It's all just recommended in what gets recommended people who already have viewers. How do you get viewers? You have to have an audience from somewhere. So Twitch is actually like the least, I would say lucrative for new people.
Time will be better spent on like YouTube shorts, Instagram reels, TikToks, and you kind of just share that content with all three of them. Make it very efficient, but just kind of grow your audience from there.
SPEAKER_02
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SPEAKER_03
You, Fritzi, what do you charge? How do you charge money? And like how many clients do you have right now?
SPEAKER_01
We take a percentage of the girls earnings. Of sales. Yeah, we start with like a three-month trial period.
And if they don't like it, they don't like we're providing value beyond what they were already doing, then we just, we won't continue on it. Like we don't lock them in for like a year or two. That's like really scummy to me.
SPEAKER_02
But what's the benchmark of what you think they should earn? Should they be earning a hundred grand a month? A million?
SPEAKER_01
I mean, what do you? It really just depends. We don't really have a benchmark right now. We kind of just look at their socials, look at like how much reach they have relative to how many people have already converted to their platforms to see if like, okay, well, we can work with that.
There's some potential here. If it's a really bad conversion, maybe, maybe not. But if it's like, it's relative to how big they are already.
SPEAKER_03
Here, here's a dangerous question, but I am curious. What works for conversion? Like we talk in the startup world about growth hacks all the time. It's like, oh, did you know that when Airbnb started, they didn't have any listings.
So they scraped Craigslist local house listings. They made them all on Airbnb and they message people on Craigslist saying, Hey, I saw your listing BNB. Can I book through there? And it was just a robot sending it.
And then that caught people to put their listing up. So startups have these like classic growth hacks, things that unlocked new sales or tactics that on your road to making millions of millions of dollars on only fans. What are the growth hacks? What are the things that work best for, for growth for you and for, for the growth that
SPEAKER_01
you manage? That's so tough because things have worked before and then algorithms change and they don't. So it's been like an evolution of what's worked.
SPEAKER_03
Well, like I don't actually, like I'm not going to do it. So you don't actually give me the functional things that work. What are the stories that are like, Oh, that's funny that that worked.
So that's worked. I want the more entertaining stories, not the boring stuff that actually.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Well, it used to work really well before Instagram really cracked down. You could have long descriptions being like spam like a word.
If you saw my latest juicy content, people would be like spamming a word that was like it's like moist or something. And then people would go read in the comments like, why is everyone saying moist? What did I miss? They would go back to the caption and they would still be confused and they would click on the profile and they would still the link in the bio, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02
That's hilarious. That's that's a pretty sophisticated thing.
SPEAKER_01
You just had them spam like provocative words, like a letter by letter. So people would be like, what is happening? And other games I used to play.
SPEAKER_03
It's like a pattern interrupt, right? They have to like, it's not what they're used to seeing. So then they had to go investigate to find out.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Yeah. Or other things they would do would be like, tell me when you see it or I would play like I spy in the pictures and that would be like a swipe image on each different image. There would be like a, like check the link in the bio for really good content.
Like just like words like on a shirt so the algorithm couldn't detect it, like like curved with that, with the shape of the shirt and stuff. Like you'd have to like zoom in and stuff. And then the comments would be like, right shoulder, right shoulder, right shoulder.
So people would like zoom in. It would be great. I really missed that.
SPEAKER_02
That's that's that's that's a really good one too. Why do you miss that?
SPEAKER_01
You can't do that anymore? I mean, my, my, my main Instagram got banned. So now I'm just, now I just play things super safe.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah. Yeah. So you're sharing this like only fans, tube top or whatever right now, do they give those to you to like, is that their company swag to like promote, help promote their site or
SPEAKER_01
you make the, yeah, I think I actually bought it from the website, but I probably could have asked. I just, it was cheaper just to buy it or faster because time is money.
SPEAKER_03
So I'm just like, and what would you do before this? Cause you're clearly like smart and a hustler and like whatever were you like, did you have like a job at like blockbuster back in the day? Like what was the career before you became this person who you became?
SPEAKER_01
I had a really weird one because most people they do like work retail or like waitressing or something.
SPEAKER_02
I actually blockbuster show.
SPEAKER_03
Blockbuster. I'm doing her thing where I throw in a random word. That's why the YouTube comments are going to be like blockbuster blockbuster.
It's going to help you that algorithm. I'm learning from her.
SPEAKER_02
Wait, but hold on. How old are you? 28. So no way is she going to be working at a blockbuster.
What do you want to do? A blockbuster.
SPEAKER_01
I used to get games for there as a kid, but once I was 16, there was not really a blockbuster
SPEAKER_03
anymore. What was the weird job you had?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I actually, it was really awesome. I did character parties for kids birthdays and hospital visits and like festivals around town and make a wish foundation stuff as like princesses and superheroes. So that was my company.
SPEAKER_03
So you would dress up in cosplay and basically like go to a kids party or a hospital basically.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, basically. Yeah. And then I got my little startup entertainment company.
SPEAKER_03
What an amazing pivot. That's the best pivot I've ever heard. Like, you know, Instagram used to be this like location app that just happened to have photos and then they were like, let's just go all in on the photos.
And you basically were like, I'm going to go all in on the costume thing, but like instead of little kids, you're like big kids.
SPEAKER_01
I still feel like I'm babysitting on Twitch too.
SPEAKER_03
So yeah, exactly. That's amazing. I have this researcher who helps me with the pod.
And I like to not know everything because if you know everything, you come in and you just ask questions, you already know the answer to it's kind of boring. But he did surface one interesting thing in his research, which was he's like, yeah, there's like, you know, leaked stuff on online where you don't have to pay for the only fans. You can just like find something.
Don't tell anyone. Well, remove it. But he was like, he's like, I think she has like a like an on like retainer like, you know, bloodhound agency or lawyer or something that's trying to like just shut all these down.
Like a cat and mouse game of you trying to like keep your content behind the paywall. And do you like how much do you pay per month to like prevent protect yourself?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we have a whole like little DMCA staff here. It's a combined effort. Like I do have lawyers.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but why are you paying for that? Only fans doesn't offer that.
SPEAKER_01
No. What? Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, I have a little like lawyer team.
SPEAKER_03
That's a startup opportunity. Create a little agency that's going to do that for all only fans, creators and just charge insurance.
SPEAKER_01
And we can offer that too.
SPEAKER_03
Oh, you offer that?
SPEAKER_01
Okay, great. Yeah, but it's funny though, because I streamed so much that like I have a very close relationship, I guess with like the moderators of my chat on my discord, they will actually actively like find leaks because people do something stupid, which is on my Twitch channel. They'll try to viewers will start mass DMing at people like leaks here, leaks here, leaks here.
They're my mods are just like, boops, send to my do you see it to me? Get a deleted. They're just like self reporting. I don't have to go looking for them.
They ended up just exposing all the leaks to me already.
SPEAKER_02
When we were hanging out with the Mr. Beast, so we did a power with them and Sean and I flew down and got to talk to him. There was a bunch of fascinating things about him, but one of the more fascinating things that a lot of people don't know is so he's like this big shot in America and has all these followers, but YouTube's global.
And so he decided to hire a team to start translating his stuff, meaning like they would dub his content with voice actors. And what he did was really interesting is he would actually over, you know, a lot of people would be like, Oh, let's just get the cheapest person who kind of sounds interesting. And I believe he would overpay where he would get like the guy who voiced a famous character in Brazil would also voice Mr.
Beast. And everyone thought that was pretty cool and it sounds neat. And so all creators were like, Hey, do that for us.
And he goes, Yeah, sure, I'll do it for you. And I forget how it works, but I believe he takes a percentage of the house.
SPEAKER_03
I'll spin up your, you know, Portuguese channel and we'll manage it. We have a person who speaks Portuguese, they'll write the descriptions. We'll have the voice actors.
We'll do all that stuff. And we take like, I don't know, 30% of the revenue of that YouTube channel for them.
SPEAKER_01
I need him to do that for me in Turkish. Because I have a huge Turkish audience because porn and ban.
SPEAKER_02
Those repressed Turkish people, they need it.
SPEAKER_01
So they need my triums in Turkish.
SPEAKER_03
But they like, Do you talk much? They probably mute anyways, you know, the universal language that we say.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that's a good point. But what's interesting is I don't know if you're doing this because you're trying to be humble, but you're kind of downplaying. I think like the, the shit that you're doing, you're like, Oh, I just have these like personal assistants and you know, we just, yeah, it could be, you're just being humble.
But have you thought about like kind of like scaling this like crazy beast or Jimmy just raised some like $200 million at like a $1.5 billion billion dollar valuation? Have you thought about being like, well, no, that's like, we're not just going to call it personal assistance. We're going hard at this and we're going to completely operationalize and help this niche of content creators.
Have you ever thought about like from that angle up as opposed to like, I don't know, maybe you're just being nice, but you kind of sounds like you're downplaying.
SPEAKER_01
I think that that's what we're trying to do with real work. We just started it like a few months ago. So it was my personal assistance that we're kind of turning into an actual organization.
SPEAKER_03
You, you're very nonchalant. That's what I mean. I'm trying to figure out what gets you basically excited about what you've done.
Cause I think it's, it's not new to you, right? When you tell it, when we hear what you're doing, it's kind of mind blowing. When you hear what you're doing, you're like, yeah, I know that's what I do every day. Right? It's not going to like, it's not going to be mind blowing to you, but there's got to be some part of you that's like, holy shit, I can't believe this is what's happening.
Like, oh my God, like this could be blah, blah, blah. And there's got to be some part of you that still has that less laid back and more excited part of you that's like, yeah, I really want this. And I know that's going to be crazy, but like, I think I could do it.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. I think all of it's pretty mind blowing. When you, when you step back and think about it, I've just, I guess I've just gotten used to like the day to day, like this is how it is.
And then doing more and more over time, you kind of just get desensitized because it's such like a slow process over the past six years. I feel slow to me anyways. I do it so much.
But yeah, I mean, I really want to do animal content on my Twitch stream. And you know, I'm hoping to move towards that soon to kind of away from like so much of the e-girl like side. Like I'm still going to be an e-girl, I guess, to people who want to brand it as that.
But like, I feel like content can be so much more than sitting in a hot tub.
SPEAKER_02
You know, when you're, when you're saying, when you're saying animal content, I'm not a Twitch person. When you're saying animal content, is that a phrase for something else or is that literally
SPEAKER_01
like, no, no, like I have horses and dogs that I want to do like Twitch stream. I'm like, I don't know what to do. I can't get a lot of streams with training and trail writing and taking care of them
SPEAKER_03
and having a stable in a ranch in the near future, hopefully. Do you have like a therapist or anybody? Because like, I've seen what Twitch streamers, like what they have to put up with. And like, there's just crazy, like love, hate, weirdo stalker thing that happens then you get famous on Twitch.
And like, you see comments that are super negative, you see comments that are super like, like super positive. Like, you're just sitting at home in your room streaming for like eight hours, which is kind of an unnatural thing without seeing the light of day during that time. Right. Like, do you do anything proactively for mental health so that you're not going nuts while you do this?
SPEAKER_01
Well, I do have a therapist now for some other reasons, but I probably should have had one this whole time for streaming as well. But my kind of mental health, I guess, outside of therapy would just be horse riding. It's kind of like my meditation.
SPEAKER_02
Does that stuff actually get to you? You know, it's actually funny. I do a decent job of like ignoring haters. We're not nearly as big as you, but we still get like, you know, hundreds of comments a day of like, hate or good and bad.
And like I recently got fit and I remember people commenting of like, oh, you look less fat or they'll say like, oh, you know, today you're looking a little chubby. And I was like, damn, these people are mean. You must get like, that was, I mean, you do thousands of people a day commenting on your looks.
Does that actually get to you? Are you, are you pretty good? I don't know, ignoring it.
SPEAKER_01
I'd say it used to get to me more, but at this point I just kind of immune to it. I think it's not so much comments that get to me. What gets to me is comparison to myself because I'll, on a photo shoot day, say I'm feeling bloated or I'm breaking out or whatever.
And I'll be referencing like pictures that did well on my social media before, just so like, we know like what to recreate the way I've done in a while. And I'm like, man, it looks so good there. I look like shit today.
Like things like that because like at the time, you know, it's like the perfect lighting, the perfect angle or whatever. And it just doesn't look that way in the mirror, you know? But then usually you did done with the shoot and you're like, Oh, these are fine. Like cause it looks different on camera.
So the reality is what fucks me up. Not really people's comments.
SPEAKER_03
Or maybe it's like a child actor thing. And like in 15 years, all the like famous Twitch streamers are going to be like, you know, I'll screw it up. It's like they were fine at the time, but it was all good.
It's like later when things get weird. You also tweet about like what you do with your money, which I think is kind of interesting. We'll talk about the gas station thing in a second.
But like we always ask, you know, the guests who come on, we say, all right, cool. Like money is this weird thing where it's kind of taboo in entrepreneurship. You're supposed to say, it's not about the money for me, but like they fight like hell to like every point of equity and every dollar earned.
It's like clearly money, money does matter to people. And they also don't really say what they do with their money. And therefore there's a bunch of people who are listening to podcasts like this that don't know like there's like information wall.
It's like you don't get to know what happens on those sites. It's like only through many years and hard lessons you get to figure it out. And we think that's kind of silly.
We try to like break down that wall a little bit. So if I was going to describe to you like a pie chart, like, okay, here's all your money. Where do you, what do you do with it? Do you just leave it in a checking account? Are you putting in the stock market? Are you buying crypto? Like can you roughly draw us like a pie chart of like, you know, how you manage your own money?
SPEAKER_01
It's kind of complicated. I didn't really get to manage it as much until recently, but the gas stations, yeah, those are, those are a fun investment though. My accountant actually brought me to that one.
They help save me on taxes because I can, I got to expense the entire cost of the building up front. So that reduced my, my, my yearly income on paper and then I had lower tax rate.
SPEAKER_02
Accelerated depreciation.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly. So that was that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03
You have to be like a real estate professional technically, right? So you're doing like the 500 hour test basically?
SPEAKER_01
Uh, no, you actually don't, don't have to be with this.
SPEAKER_02
Explain that to me. I want to do that.
SPEAKER_03
You know, I thought it's basically if you're passive, then it could only offset passive income, but your other stuff is active income, right? So do I have a misunderstanding or does it work differently?
SPEAKER_01
I just know my accountant team brought me, they said there was this opportunity and they explained to me like, okay, so I'm just putting money into that. And then yeah, they kind of have all the rest of the details. I just throw the money at it.
SPEAKER_02
Is most of your portfolio just in boring index funds?
SPEAKER_01
I would say most of it's in stocks that make sense with like a million dollars of visa
SPEAKER_03
stock the other day. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
That's like a really reliable thing. It's not going anywhere, especially since pandemic is kind of at least the fear of it is dying down. People are out there traveling more, getting out more.
It's just only going to get better.
SPEAKER_03
It's also like a cashback program for you. You've probably paid like nearly a million dollars in credit card fees to visa. And now it's a way to sort of what else did you buy?
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I have some Google, I have some Shopify, Amazon. Yeah, I have some crypto, but I don't know how I feel about crypto yet.
SPEAKER_01
How do you feel? Because I just, it's so up and down all the time that it's just, I can't tell what it's really going to do. So.
SPEAKER_02
Where do you, when you're researching which, what do you want to buy? Where do you learn? Like what resources do you turn to?
SPEAKER_01
Well, I have the accounting team and I also have, you know, YouTube and Google like everyone else.
SPEAKER_02
So. What do you do on Google and YouTube? What do you, who do you listen to?
SPEAKER_01
I don't really have like a certain person, I guess. It's just kind of like, I get linked various things that people send me. Yeah. I used to actually talk to a lot of streamers about it and my DMs. You know, I don't know if you guys knew who RECFUL was.
Maybe you worked at Twitch. We used to talk about stocks and our DMs. So that's kind of where I got started with it.
And then I was just sent stuff and kind of explored it. And then I got like an accountant and it all just kind of compiles from everywhere.
SPEAKER_03
Do you do any other type of investing? That's interesting. So you, as one gas station or multiple and then you have stocks, is there anything else?
SPEAKER_01
I have some businesses I've bought and some private equity too.
SPEAKER_01
I can't really talk about the private equity because it's private. Legally, I can't say anything much about it, but basically they just acquire small businesses throughout the year and I send them money as needed up to like five million or so is what the total will be.
SPEAKER_03
But on a deal by deal basis, basically.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Yeah. And whenever they need it, they call for it. They just schedule payment system with it.
SPEAKER_03
Gotcha. And then what about businesses you bought? What are you buying and who's running these things?
SPEAKER_01
Well, usually I buy businesses that can just run themselves. I guess the, if you guys heard about like the ball pit company or like the ball, the plastic ball company I used for my ball pit stuff.
SPEAKER_01
What is that? It's more. It's just, it's like a, probably a manufacturer. They're based in China though.
They make like playground balls, like a, you know, like ball pit type stuff. Yeah. They just like really, yeah. See, it was just really, I guess low.
SPEAKER_03
Well, you bought the Chinese manufacturer?
SPEAKER_01
Well, like they share the facility with other people, but yeah, they manufacture balls and I bought that company. Why? How? It was really, it's actually really good to profit margins.
SPEAKER_03
But like how did this even come across your desk?
SPEAKER_01
Accountant, accountant. They just send me stuff. They're like, that's saying it.
And I like to gravitate towards the ones that I can also use for publicity stunts and on Twitch. So like I turned my entire room into a ball pit.
SPEAKER_03
Your accountant is like the LeBron James of accountants or the Bernie Madoff of accountants. I haven't decided which one yet, but he's doing way more than the call of duty as an accountant.
SPEAKER_01
It sounds like. Yeah. I have like a team. It's, it's hard to explain at all.
I just, normally I just throw them the money and I'm like, yes, make it work.
SPEAKER_03
Are you afraid of like being one of those like athletes that goes broke on like, you know, my, my manager, my accountant talked to me into buying these like this chain of you know, Wendy's that was like non-existent and ran away with my money because it sounds like you're throwing money at crazy places right now. Is that a fear for you?
SPEAKER_01
No, no, not really.
SPEAKER_03
If you're not afraid, I'm not afraid.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. I had bigger fears than that.
SPEAKER_02
And like we were asking you some of these like super specific money questions and it, people are listening now, but you know, you're the look in your face because like, why the fuck are these guys asking me all these questions about this money shit? Like this makes me uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_01
Well, it's like I only recently got back and control my finances. I don't know if y'all saw that drama, but what happened? I can't say too much about it, but I got out of kind of a controlling relationship a bit. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah. Yeah. We keep the dark stuff over there. We just do the money stuff here.
We don't, we don't worry. We try not to get into the heavy topics.
SPEAKER_02
What I was saying was you do things that 99.9% of people would find to be incredibly embarrassing for to do. Like there'd be, there'd be too nervous to do that.
You know, it's too taboo. I'm uncomfortable doing that. And I think that it's, it's wild that we think that, all right, we're okay with that.
But we're also nervous about talking about the money thing. And like that's just like an interesting insight. And we've talked to so many people and it's very rare that someone's comfortable talking about money.
It still makes me really uncomfortable. But it's just like an interesting thing. It's like, oh, I thought this woman wasn't afraid of anything.
But when we talk about money, it can be a weird topic.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. I'm pretty comfortable talking about the money so much like some of the more like investment business side. It's not just me.
So it's like, I can feel like I can't talk too much about it because I'm not like the only person driving those types of things.
SPEAKER_03
When we were talking to Mr. Beast, he's been going into like, you know, feastables, like his chocolate bar and then he created like a pop up like cloud kitchen restaurant thing called Beast Burger and he's like talking about different like businesses where he can go into and say, okay, I can use my fame and my distribution to like give these businesses an unfair advantage. Are you doing, it sounds like the ball pit is sort of like that where you were like, okay, if I buy this company and I make it part of my content, then like, you know, sales could go up.
But like, I can imagine like any of the taboo sort of like, or like, you know, whatever sex related type of products, whether it's like, you know, it could be swimwear, it could be lingerie, it could be sex toys, it could be like, who knows, I don't know, I don't know what else it could be. Like, are you going down that pathway? Like we should actually like, either buy or create a business like in those categories and use me and maybe the other girls I know that will be a part of promoting this and like we can blow this company up into a pretty big company. Are you thinking along those lines?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I am definitely for the future as I'm trying to move towards, you know, more collaborative efforts with other girls with the rework. So I really want to do like lingerie. I think makeup is a good way to go to beauty industry is huge.
But yeah, definitely like those are on my mind right now.
SPEAKER_03
Do you have to do products that guys want? Or is it product that like, how many of your fans are women versus men?
SPEAKER_01
It's going to be a mixture. It's looking like since I'm blowing up more now, where it's like I do have more of a female audience, especially like since a lot of the girls kind of look to me as a person to follow as far as like the OF side goes, e-girl side, whatever you want to call it. So it's getting more balanced.
But yeah, I also still have a project that I've been working on with Ludwig this past year. We're making an Amaranth flashlight.
SPEAKER_03
So yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking about. We're doing that too. That was the idea that I was thinking about.
Nailed it.
SPEAKER_02
Dude, have you, have you guys ever heard of kink.com? Have you heard of kink.com? Yeah.
So kink.com was like, I think that they were a website, but also the parent company and they owned all these like fetish websites. So you know kinks and I don't know what they all were, but like one of them or one of them that was pretty funny was like these people who would like wrestle and then have sex.
And this guy started it. You're not even ready to wrestling? Yeah. Well, they like, no, but they were like Olympic wrestling.
Like they were wearing like unitards and then like they, it warps into sex and whatever. And the guy who started it, it was just a guy and he started it in the late nineties during the dotcom boom. So he was an early mover and he built it into a huge business.
And eventually he bought this old armory, which is basically a huge building in the center of the mission district in San Francisco, which is considered some of the most expensive real estate in the city because it's like a desirable hipster neighborhood. And he built this huge thing. And it was basically like a palace.
It was like an airplane. Imagine an airplane hanger, but like in the one of the more desirable neighborhoods of San Francisco and he owned it and they eventually would film all their shit there. So like they had like a wrestling area and then they had like a bar where they would do like people who like to have sex in public.
They like mimicked a bar and people would have sex in it and film it and they would charge subscribers money, whatever. And when I first moved to San Francisco, I took a Groupon tour of it. Like you could like you could because it's just like an interesting building that's an old armory where they like it's like an old historical building and it's also a porn studio.
And I was hanging out with this girl and she was like, Hey, do you want to go like see this thing? It's on Groupon. It's a porn studio. We can just go take a tour of it.
Historical building. And I was like, yeah, I guess. And that's how I learned what kink.
com was. I went and like, you see this stuff and I'm like, this is crazy. And then I started thinking about like all these media companies like Jimmy and I used to do it too, or we'd be like, oh, we would have become like the Disney of blank.
And I'm like, oh, this guy at kink, that's his Disney Disneyland. Like he had all these people taking tours to come. I think we spent 50 bucks and we got a tour where they're like, here's where like the army used to prepare.
Now we use it as a dungeon for sex takes because like there's a hose here so we can spray people with water while they have like it was all kink stuff. And it was pretty wild that this was like part of their business model. And like the people on that tour, like I'm a pretty straight lace guy.
It was like straight lace people who had no idea what this website was. And then there was other people that were like totally into it. And they're like, oh, I'm seeing where this I'm seeing the studio where my favorite stuff is filmed.
It was incredibly fascinating. Sean, I'm sure you haven't heard of that. It was like right in the middle of the building.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I didn't know the website part, but yeah, that building is kind of famous. It's a beautiful building from the outside. And when you go by, somebody will always tell you, you know, hey, this is what that is.
SPEAKER_01
What does it call it again?
SPEAKER_03
The building? The Armory, right?
SPEAKER_02
But if you look up like kink.com building San Francisco or something, there'll be a Wikipedia page and this building, it might be worth north of $100 million at this point, maybe more. And it's like a huge building in a very desirable neighborhood.
And it was just like super fascinating. This guy did this. And so maybe in the future, what we're going to see you have is we're going to see you like be like, oh, hey, creators who work with me, do you want to like a come you want a place to come stay? Like, you know, I can you could host your office in my studio and then eventually it's like, hey, fans of us, whoever wants to spend a hundred bucks, you can come get like a walking guided tour.
And then eventually you're just going to own like all this amazing. Yeah. Red Light District. You're going to own all this real estate.
Anyway, it was a really interesting play that these folks did. And I think it I think the building became worth more than the porn brand.
SPEAKER_03
Wow. I read something you said that I thought was pretty interesting. You go, I think you said this.
It was there's like the Warren Buffett has this phrase, like you only have to get rich once. And you were saying, like, for social media, it's the same thing. You got to just build an audience once.
And you only got to get famous once. And so what, how did you actually get famous? What was the, what was the, were there any big inflection points where it like, it went from like, you know, not that many people watching me or following me to like way more or was it just very steady or were there, were there any like big moments?
SPEAKER_01
But I used to the hots of meta was probably huge. That was probably doubled my growth at least. But before that, it was kind of just, I guess I entered the social media space at a time when it wasn't over saturated like 2016.
It wasn't as crazy as it is now where everyone wants to be an influencer. So I think I got really lucky with the timing and then I just was growing on Twitch and Twitch wasn't over saturated either at that time. And I just kind of grew with the platform because I streamed so much and what separated me from others was I was also making content on pretty much every other platform at the same time.
Like I had Facebook page, I had Instagram, I had Twitter, I had YouTube, and I was just kind of growing it plus Patreon also kind of boosted my ability to just make that my full time thing because I wasn't relying just on Twitch. I didn't have to keep like a day job or whatever.
SPEAKER_03
And describe how intense the content like work is. Because I think some people would say, oh man, you just post a picture on OnlyFans. That's like, you make a million dollars a month and all you got to do is like post a pic like once a day or whatever.
That's it. What is the reality?
SPEAKER_01
Like right now my content schedule is a little crazy, but pretty much every week I'll have like a day or two where I just dedicate to OnlyFans and Fansley and Patreon like all my NSFW platforms and then I also like the next day I'll do all my YouTube, Twitter, Instagram content as well. So pretty much two days out of the week are like 12 hour photo shoot days across all my different types of content. And then the rest of the time I'll just stream on Twitch because that's kind of my billboard that pays me.
Gotcha. It's my funnel.
SPEAKER_02
It's just like there's no reason, it's completely illogical why I feel this way, but it is just funny, you know, Sean and I talk about the exact same shit just with different types of content and it's so funny that it's like, it's just not a normal conversation that we typically have where it's with not safe for work content and I think that's so cool.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it's very different for sure.
SPEAKER_02
But it's all the same mechanics and it's just like what? And in my head I'm like, she's just doing the exact same shit we do. She's just a different niche and frankly a significantly bigger, significantly more profitable. And like we're happy with like a million dollar a year maybe if like in the tech world on the Twitter world and it's just like, oh yeah, that's cool.
I'm decently happy with a million dollar a month too.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it's kind of crazy. So I'm just trying to get it while, you know, the getting is good because I feel like it's such a rare opportunity to have. I don't know, waste it.
SPEAKER_03
Okay. So you're like, you know, doing really well with this stuff now. What's the, is there like an end of the road where you're like, okay, I'm just gonna, like I have to retire at certain points and like, do you sort of see like I have a very small window here for this or do you think it's going to be much longer than that?
SPEAKER_01
I do feel like I have a small window compared to other types of content since it's mostly based off my appearance and there's always younger people coming into the space. But yeah, I don't know how much longer I don't have like a cutoff period. I would think I would like to be done with the grind within the next year, maybe three
SPEAKER_03
max. I think if somebody's confused, by the way, because like when I first heard about Only Fans, I was like, why would I pay like, porn's free? What do you mean? Why would I pay $5 a month for this? Is there like some psychological benefit that people get out of it? Like, you know, what drives somebody to actually pay for something when there's so much of a free alternative available to them out there on the internet?
SPEAKER_01
I think part of it is the parasocial aspect where it's like, they feel like they kind of like know this person because they'd see them on either YouTube or Twitch or whatever it is. They don't have a lot of boredom with it. Like they treat it like, this is my girlfriend, which is definitely not your girlfriend, bro.
But yeah, I feel like part of it is just like they like a certain person's kind of look. Like they're really into whatever characteristics make up that creator and they want to see more from that specific look that they've become like, attracted to, I guess, or have some form of attachment just from seeing their face so much.
SPEAKER_03
Sam, have you ever heard this word parasocial? No, no.
SPEAKER_02
What is that? Can you define that a little bit? Can you use that word and then the word about when you were talking about spamming the comments, I've never heard someone call it that. That was an interesting one too.
SPEAKER_01
Parasocial is basically like a one-sided air quotes relationship that the viewer has with the content creator. Like some people get way too invested in a creator's personal life. Like they want to know who they're dating, what they did today, where they've been, why aren't they online right now? That's, I would say that's a very parasocial thing.
They feel like more entitled to a relationship when they don't actually know the person.
SPEAKER_02
But it's a, I mean, that's good for you, no?
SPEAKER_01
In some ways, until it gets to like a stalker threatening level. But most of the time, yeah, parasocial is profitable for the creator.
SPEAKER_02
But how many times do you think it crosses the line? How often would that happen to you where it actually is an issue?
SPEAKER_01
I always say you get multiple red flags per day in messages. I'm sure there's even more that I don't read. But as far as in-person altercations, typically a few a year will try to physically show up at your house, then you get a hoard of people also just trying to swat you and dox you in general who are mad that either you're not dating them or that you didn't respond or whatever.
So it's complicated. I think crazy.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, people are insane. I'm glad we're not more famous.
SPEAKER_02
Well, Sean and I get like a 1% of that because sometimes people will hear Sean talk and they're like, oh, you're really good at talking about money and you're pretty successful. Therefore, show me the way. What the hell? You didn't reply to me? After all, I do for you.
Yeah. And that's like 1%. I'm sure of what you get because it's when love and all that shit's involved.
It's just way more intense and way more dangerous, I think. Yeah, people are psycho. And so what would someone do? They just think that, hey, what the hell, man? I messaged you and we were talking and I thought we were together.
Now you're still doing this stuff.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, some people get catfish too by people just pretending to be me. And so they'll be like, I can't hear all this money and you didn't show up. I'm like, oh no.
Oh no. But yeah, typically it's just crazy people who are just basically talking to themselves. One sided conversation in the DMs, never getting a response and they just keep going.
They just keep going.
SPEAKER_03
I feel like I could create an AI only fans creator and just crush it because she could do anything. And she would talk to anyone anytime of day and she would be the girlfriend you always wanted. And so if anyone out there is an engineer who wants to help me with this, let's try to create an AI only fans, a girl who's going to make a million dollars in a month.
That's the mission and we'll publish how we're doing along the way. And we're going to learn all the growth hacks and we're going to put it all out there. They can't dox her or swatter because she doesn't exist.
She doesn't live anywhere. And so I think it is maybe the future there. So that's my call to action.
He wants to help me with that project. Get in my DMs on Twitter, Sean VP.
SPEAKER_02
Have you guys seen? Is it called avatar dot me? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
Have you guys seen that?
SPEAKER_02
I have not. All right. So check this out.
So there's like all this like AI shit where you it's like all built on the back of one thing and then all these people are creating plugins and layers on tops of top of it. And so there's this new thing where you can upload 20 pictures of yourself and it will give you avatars created with you in mind. It's fucking amazing.
So check this out. So I just uploaded a bunch of pictures of my face and there were a few pictures that I posted of my body because I was doing like before and after of like fitness shit. But it sent me photos back of me looking like a dominatrix.
Look at the pictures. I posted them in. I posted them in the Riverside chat here, but then it gave me this other picture that I have no idea what this is.
It gave me this other picture where it's supposed to be like I only post gave it pictures of me with like my stomach up and it like made a fake picture of my ass and it was just like a picture of my butt and it's fucking disgusting and weird. But like I was looking at this and I'm like, oh, there's definitely going to be this type of thing because have you guys seen I think it's called replica dot AI. It's basically a service where you can like you can just spend money and you get like a friend that learns how to interact with you and you also can get like an online girlfriend who just is like it's a text based conversation that you're having with this fake woman and she gets to know you and figures out your taste and likes.
It was all built on AI. Now we just got to add it with some of this with some of these pictures and then eventually deep fake videos and like your job ultimately is going to be completely unnecessary. Like the use of the world are going to be it's like, hey, wait, you're real.
Why would you do it? Why are you wasting that time being real? You know, or like maybe there should be like bots of you that understand your personality and actually do talk to these men and you can like license out your your face to replica dot AI. There's going to be a lot of interesting things like that I think in the near and like the next two years probably.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, for sure. It's getting kind of crazy the technology.
SPEAKER_03
Right on. All right. Well, listen, this is great.
I'm glad you came on. Thanks for doing this and worship you find you if they want to see more, learn more, get to know you a little bit better.
SPEAKER_01
I just just refer to my link directory and the URL is easy to remember it's down bad
SPEAKER_03
dot com. What down bad dot com? Yes. Down bad dot com.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01
That's easy. Okay. It has all my platforms listed there because sometimes, you know, stuff gets banned and the link will change. So it's always there.
SPEAKER_03
That's cool. All right. Thanks, Kate.
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, thanks. Appreciate you. Thanks.