SPEAKER_02
Here's the exact quote. He goes, Do you want the numbers? All right. In year one, we cleared $110 million in retail sales.
Sorry, $250 million in retail sales and 110 million gross internally.
SPEAKER_01
All right, we're live. What's up? What's up, dude? It's just not the same without thousands of roaring fans chanting our name, signing, you know, people's backs and shit like that. Harry Bax.
SPEAKER_02
Harry Bax. Sweaty Bax. You want to do a recap.
So basically the gist of this is is Sean and I did a somewhat impromptu. It was supposed to be a meetup turned into like a live performance, basically in Vancouver. I don't know how many people were there between a thousand or 1300 ish.
But we sold out this theater in Vancouver. It went pretty great. You want to talk about a few things that surprised you?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, let's let's do that. Okay. Surprising. Surprisingly hard to be on stage, even though we kind of at this point talk for a living.
There was a moment about an hour before where we're both like, like, how do you use your tongue? Do you touch it against your teeth when you're making sounds? What do you do with that? And we just had no idea what to say. Why do people, it was like, you know, that moment of panic where it's like, are these people even coming for us? Who are they? Is this, did they say that? Did they sell the tickets or did people just click maybe? Like, you know, we just questioned everything for a moment. What are we going to say up front? How do we make this amazing for people?
SPEAKER_02
And there was really no thought that went into this. Like one hour we went and got sushi at a time and we were like, so what do you want to talk about? We talked about that for five minutes and then we started talking to each other about family and just fun stuff.
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, we had like a 10 minute pow wow to try to figure it out. But I think it turned out okay either. I think the content turned out.
We basically, we're pretty tough critics of ourselves. I think we gave the overall event an eight out of 10. And I think the, I think it was not, it was not a 10 because I think it was a little poorly structured.
Like the opening part was a lot of intro, welcome to our sponsor, thank our sponsors, that sort of thing. And also we weren't as well prepared as we could have been in terms of like, we could have come up with things that play better than on stage. Like I had the moment of clarity afterwards.
I was like, oh, it's a show that's live with the audience. We should be doing things like A, B and C. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we didn't fully get that, but we did like a little shark tank pitch competition. We did Q and A, we did some stuff with the crowd. I think that was good.
SPEAKER_02
All things considered, I thought it was actually a nine. I think like given the amount of preparation and the amount of fun people had, another shocking thing was, I think the value in order was to see us to meet one another then to actually hear what we had to say.
SPEAKER_01
Right, exactly. And I think there was some benefit in doing it in Vancouver where there's probably just not a lot of events going on for entrepreneurs or tech people that are like exciting. Versus I think if we had done this in San Francisco, we probably would have got more numbers, but they wouldn't have cared as much.
Like there was a lot of people at this thing in Vancouver that traveled from Toronto or from Portland or from different places to come see it because, oh, might as well. It's a couple hours away and you know, there's not going to be another thing like this anytime soon where I'm at. So anyways, those were some quick recaps.
I guess if people weren't there, what should we explain? What did we actually do? So it was me, you and Andrew Wilkinson on stage. It was in this theater. So there's like a balcony seating.
It was like a, you know, basically a giant theater where like a comedian would normally play. In fact, backstage as we're walking up, it was truly humbling. And I mean humbling in the most shit on myself way, which was we were walking up to the stage and it's like these framed pictures of guys who were in that same green room before us.
It's like Jerry Seinfeld, Dave Chappelle, it's like all these like legendary comedians. And it's like some of the best podcasters that you've ever seen in the entrepreneurship category on Apple podcasts.
SPEAKER_02
It was humbling. Another thing that was humbling was after it happened, we left the stage and we went and just hung out with people and there was this a huge line. And what it made me realize was that, so a lot of people don't realize this, but it's basically Sean and me and producer Ben, we are sitting here just recording talking to each other.
You forget, we forget on a regular basis that it's being recorded. When the podcast gets published, we don't see comments. We don't know like we could see the numbers, but it's just like an analytics screen.
I don't know who's listening, why they're listening. I don't know any of that. And so you forget and it's really fun to go and meet people who could see your thing and realize, wow, this actually matters to them.
That was humbling as well.
SPEAKER_01
And that there would be like a father and son be like, we always listen to the pod together and then we brainstorm. He's 14, but he wants to be an entrepreneur like you guys. So after we listen to the pod, we then brainstorm and do stuff.
It's like, oh, that's really cool. This is like a, this is like embedded in your kind of like family a little bit. There were examples like that that were very surprising to me, but, but cool.
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SPEAKER_02
All right, everyone. Today's episode is brought to you by marketing against the grain. If you want to know what's happening in marketing, then this is the podcast for you.
The hosts are Kit Bodner, who's HubSpot CMO and Kieran Flanagan, who's HubSpot's SVP of marketing on the pod. They share their unfiltered marketing expertise. One of my favorite recent episodes was called why creators are disrupting marketing.
Kip and Kieran talked to Steph Smith, who's been on my first million a ton about all things creator economy. They asked her how you could find a niche audience, how to create great content for them and how to monetize that content. And if you know Steph Smith, you know, there's no one better at that type of stuff.
So if you love marketing, you want to know what's happening at the cutting edge of the world of marketing. Go listen to marketing against the grain wherever you get your podcast.
SPEAKER_01
Also, I should say you were good at that. Like you were really good on stage. Sam was, I don't know what happened.
I think the nicotine pouch kicked in and Sam went to another level. I'm gonna start doing nicotine, dude. That was a great ad for that.
Sam had great jokes. And then afterwards also, I feel like in the meet and greet, you were good at being kind of the celebrity. Like I didn't know what to do with my hands.
You know, people would come up and be like, can I take a picture? And my response was like, why? Oh, yeah, sure. I guess. And then they would stand next to me and I would do this like point thing to each one of them, like this guy.
Like if you look, go look on the Instagram, every picture with me. I'm just doing, nah, it's about this guy right here. Whoever the fan was.
And you were giving them the billionaire hug, which I don't know if people picked up on, but you taught me this afterwards. I didn't know this trick. Explain the billionaire hug.
SPEAKER_02
So I have a theory that once you hit a billion dollars, you get like invited to this like seminar and they teach you how to do a Billy hug, which is basically when you hug someone, your hips and ass are in one direction, but then your shoulders and arm lean hard to the right. And so you could be touching them shoulder to shoulder, but ass to ass, you're never touching them. And this is like a way to like, look, we're touching and I'm being affectionate, but like my crotch isn't in the vicinity.
Therefore it's safe. It's all good. This is PC.
And so I do the billionaire hug. I also bring my wife along to all these things as well because it always freaks me out. I'm like, I don't know, man.
I don't want ever, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. Sometimes, you know, it's just, it's just, it can be uncomfortable every once in a while. So I did the Billy hug.
I do that. I'm not a Billy, but I did the Billy hug because I've learned from Billy's.
SPEAKER_01
Is it a, is it a sexual thing? Is it like, you know, you're, you're keeping your wallet away from them. What do you do? And why, why does the, why do the hips need to be away? Is there even an explanation or it's just something that only billionaires would understand.
SPEAKER_02
It's just a time-honored tradition. I don't know. I'm not there yet.
So I don't know, but I just, I, you know, it's like singing in the shower. I copy my heroes. So that's why I do it.
And this is a man and a woman thing, by the way. It's from the man as well. I've noticed that sometimes we have this relationship with people where they hear us talk and they think, oh, you're so approachable.
And sometimes they'll come up to me and they'll go, dude, let's fuck. Let's do this. And I'm like, whoa, you're coming on too hard to me.
I know I say this stuff, but you're coming on too hard. So sometimes you need to set some boundaries and that's my mini boundary. It's the crotch boundary.
SPEAKER_01
Right. We, we, so we had our buddy Andrew on there. Andrew was really funny too.
I got to say Andrew, who's been on the pod a bunch of times. I'd never met in person. So I've talked to him on the phone.
We've done zoom calls. He's come on the pod, but in person, I got to say, he's got a lot more juice than I expected and tell the story about lunch. So we go to lunch.
So before the show would like, oh, dude, we got to hang out, Ben. You're, he's kind of from this area. I thought Vancouver, BC is all the same thing.
Actually, you got to take a sea plane. Yeah. Or a helicopter. So he took a fucking chopper to come meet us, which is honestly one of the more big dog moves anyone's ever done to me.
SPEAKER_02
Well, the reason we knew it was a big dog move because he was a little, he was like five or 10 minutes late. And instead of saying, you know, my flight was delayed, he said, I was late for my flight and I was like, wait, what?
SPEAKER_01
That's subtle. I didn't think that up. I just heard over what he called on the phone.
It was just, I just heard the chopper going and I was like, hey, wait a minute. Is there a fan on near you? What's going? What is that? So he lands and before he lands, he goes, I'm going to be five to 10 minutes late. Again, I was late for my flight.
And then he goes, order me.
SPEAKER_02
And he had a list.
SPEAKER_01
Ordered to me and Sam. He goes, eight oysters, two salmon nigiri, this like, you know, whatever, wagyu steak, a miso soup. I have a nut and shellfish allergy.
I'll die if somebody does that. And then he just signs it off. Thanks.
But just THX and I see this. I mean, I was, I was running late too as, as per usual. I was in the shower at this point.
I just started laughing. Sam replies.
SPEAKER_02
What did you say? I was like, did you just say thanks to me? Like, yes, sir. I mean, it was like ridiculous and he was like, sorry.
SPEAKER_01
He tried to blame an auto correct. We're like, no, bro, you're just used to talking to people too much like that. You have people who let you get away with that.
That shit might fly in Canada, but you don't bring that weak THX shit to the United States of America. We reject that. We send that back.
Um, we go to lunch and we're having a good time. We're just catching up again. Andrew's got the juice.
He's got the juice in the way that my best friends who I look up to the most have that juice. You have that too. When you hang out in person with Sam, he's got a little bounce in his step and it just seems like he's eager.
He's excited. He's got a plan wherever you go. There's not going to be, it's not going to just be a default normal experience.
Something a little more fun is going to happen. Something a little extra is going to have a little more laughter, a little more, you know, learning something extra is going to happen. So Andrew had that, which I was, which was awesome to see because he's quite, I don't know, would you say like reserved or calm? He's got almost like a calm brand, but in person, his energy was a lot more kinetic, freewheeling, and I liked it.
SPEAKER_02
He had a very kinetic energy where he was physical, you know, he was moving.
SPEAKER_01
That's a great way of putting it.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. He was kinetic. He had that.
And I have that too. People always yell at me because I've got big thighs and I shake. And whenever I shake my thighs, the table moves and they're like, dude, you're too kinetic.
So yeah, he's got that kinetic energy and we're having this wonderful lunch. It's probably an hour and a half in and then we're not quite done eating yet, or at least it doesn't feel there. And then all of a sudden he goes, oh shoot, and we're like, what? Like he like, it's like a panic.
He goes, dude, my Uber's been outside waiting for me for 10 minutes. I got to go buy and he just stands up and walks away and we're like, no, he was
SPEAKER_01
even better than that. He just stood up like he was stretching for a second and then he picked up his jacket and he's like, I'll see you guys at the place. We're like, what? And he goes, that's how I got to go.
My Uber's been outside for 10 minutes. What, when did you call an Uber? And he floated away like a balloon. Like he was the grandfather and up and he just went away.
The house flew away. And then me and Sam were like, okay. Yo, was that weird that he just kind of floated away like a balloon?
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it's like, we'll work on conversation skills later, Andrew. Have a nice day. Yeah, he just kind of bounced.
SPEAKER_01
I had to blow him a kiss. He was floating away so far. It was the only appropriate goodbye.
SPEAKER_02
But in general, the thing was awesome. Now, I don't, I'm not going to put you on the spot, but I would like us to do a five or three like thing where like a day thing where we could do like, you know, three dates in five days. I want to go to like C and B cities.
So not the New York's, not the SF's, something like Denver or Toronto or Kansas City, something where they're, you know, what did you call it? Small fish, small pond syndrome. That's what I want to be. I want to be a big fish in a small pond because these people were big piss in a small pond.
SPEAKER_01
That's a hard word to say, but you want to do it. You have a little something on your shirt here. I think you got a little taste of fame, a little dribble of that fame that just stained the shirt there.
You, you liked that taste of fame, didn't you? Well, here's why I like it.
SPEAKER_02
We've talked about this. We know why you like it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
Cause being famous is awesome.
SPEAKER_02
It is awesome, but it is exhausting. Now I understand why like the touring bands who last a long time, they show up, they do the concert and they go home and go to bed. I was like, I couldn't sleep cause we were like, did we hung out with everyone? Then we had like a breakfast the next day.
But anyway, I liked it because it was a challenge. I also think that in our little tech world, we assume that we're this little niche internet nerds, which we are, but it's actually cool to like flex and see the people on it. And honestly felt like a movement.
And there was times where I felt it was you and I were great at what we do. But in reality, we were just an excuse and like a steward of like a particular type of movement of these people who are like, you know, we're all on a journey. Some people are further ahead.
Some people are not there yet. Some people don't want to go far. Some do, but they're all going someplace.
And it felt like we were just an excuse to gather those people and it really felt beyond and bigger than us. I know that sounds woo, woo and shit like that, but that's truly how it felt. And so that's why I thought it was cool.
SPEAKER_01
I agree 100%. At first I felt so excited. I was like, man, I can't believe we sold out this theater.
There's 2000 people on the waitlist. They came to see us. And I think there was a small part that was like, that's like the stated excuse, but the reality is that the value was just if you like this podcast, that's put you through a bunch of filters and the filters are like a lot of our sayings, right? So it's like, you know, no small boy stuff, right? So it's like people who want to think big for themselves, but they define what big means for them.
But it's also people who don't take themselves too seriously. If you want the smartest podcasts, you should go listen to invest like the best and go listen to all in and go listen to a bunch of podcasts with people who are their intellectual horsepower outruns ours, right? The oven burns a little hotter for those guys than it does for us. If you want somebody who like we will celebrate a dude who's like a plumber that's hacking the yellow pages to get more leads as much as we will a guy who's building a new city or a new country, you know, from scratch.
And so there's like this set of people who appreciate the same things we appreciate. And when you put them together, we're probably like, it's not easy for them. I think of their day to day life to be around a bunch of other people who are like them, the sort of schemer and dreamer, you know, profile or archetype.
And so that's what I saw was the best because it was like, oh man, sorry, you guys had to wait. They're like, no, it was awesome. I was in line with a bunch of other people who were, I bet this guy who's doing this and this guy is doing this.
And I said, oh, wow, okay, that makes sense to me. Like the real value here wasn't coming and getting a selfie with me as I do my awkward point. It was actually just getting like to be in a community of other people who have that, who have the same sort of freak energy that you have.
Then once that once I saw that, I was like, okay, this makes sense. We should do, you know, more of this.
SPEAKER_02
Dude, I met a guy like there was a couple billionaires in the crowd. I don't know if you know that and I'm not going to call him out, but I met one of them. And he was like a typical like dorky guy.
And then I met this other guy who had a sheetrock business that like, you know, it's like a blue collar thing and his hands were just so meaty and fat. And I remember shaking his hands and I told him, I was like, dude, I can't even wrap my hand around your hand and I'm not small. And that's, and I was like, dude, that's sick.
We got, we got the neckbeards. They had the callous hands guys. And this guy, one of the guys I go, yeah, just, you know, DM me on Twitter.
He goes, okay, cool, you'll see me. My Twitter handle is called fucking manly. And that's what he said to me.
And I was like, all right, that's badass. I think I gave us a hat.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. He said to me, he's like, my wife has a big Instagram following for women stuff. So I decided to create fucking manly to counteract that.
I thought that was awesome. I want to tell you about one woman who I thought was really, had a really interesting story that came out. So I was at the, there was a dinner the night before that the tiny guys hosted.
And at the dinner, met some people, whatever was good. One woman came up and she goes, hey, my name's Anya, you know, big fan of all. And then she gave me a little like quick high five.
She goes, I just made my first million. And I was like, nice. What do you do? And, and she was like, well, I created this app for people with panic attacks.
It's called rooted. And I was like, panic attacks, I never would have even thought about that niche. And she's like, yeah, you know, I struggled with it like crazy.
And so then I created this app. So she pulls out this app called rooted and rooted as in like, you know, feeling grounded instead of having, you know, this sort of panic attack. And there's like a red panic button you can hit if you're feeling something in the moment.
But there's also just like sleep. There's like lessons where you can learn about like, what is this thing? And why does this happen to me? Like drills and breathing exercises. Breathing exercises and so on and so forth.
And she said she has had 2. something million downloads at this app. And I thought, okay, that's pretty great.
Then I was like, wow, are you, are you just really good at Facebook ads or what? She goes, no, I don't do any paid marketing. Yeah. And I was like, so how do you get 2. something million downloads off this? She goes, well, I think, you know, it's all a real problem.
And also I dominate like the app store search for this. And everybody else went really broad. They tried to go for like sleep or anxiety or breathing.
And I went for panic attack because everybody else thought that was too narrow. And I just really like did a good job owning that in the app store, ASO, right? Instead of SEO, the app store optimization. And then I started getting good reviews and it just snowballed.
And now I'm like the top one in that. And I thought, and I was like, wow.
SPEAKER_02
Did she tell you how big of the team was?
SPEAKER_01
Exactly. So I was like, she's already halfway to being my hero at this point. And I go, this is our first business.
I go, seal the deal for me. How big is your team? She goes, it's just me. Yeah. Crazy, right? I go, what? And she goes, yeah, it's just me. I have a couple of contractors that help me with things, but there's no employees.
I don't want any employees. And I was like, I want to be you. You know, she's building something that has an impact.
You know, she dominated it her way when anybody else would have, like, if she went to go ask, you know, smart guys like us or, you know, go ask a mentor, what should I do? They'd either say, you know, go ask an investor. They'll say it's too small of a market. Go ask a mentor.
They'll say, well, you need to, you know, what's your growth strategy? And she's like, I don't know. I just want to build a useful product and like, I'll figure it out as I go. Third is like, you need to scale up.
You're in no way, because she's closing these deals now with like healthcare companies where they'll just provide it for like, you know, all of the members of their gold plan. So like, they'll pay for it for 50,000 members or something like that now. And, you know, do you need a BD rep and a sales team and all this stuff? She's like, no, I just go take the meeting myself and it took some time, but we got the deal done.
And I was like, wow.
SPEAKER_02
She said she meets them on LinkedIn. She goes, I just messaged them on LinkedIn. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01
So I thought on it, you know, shout out to her. She's the, she's got the, I don't know, not Billy of the Week, not blue color side hustle. She's something else, but like, you know, the riches and niches award of the week, you know, goes to her because I thought that was a pretty amazing story.
SPEAKER_02
No, it was amazing. And this is her first business. And so like, you know, everything that she said or everything that she has done, if you told me, like if she told me the idea, which is I'm going to, I've never done anything tech related before and I can't code.
I'm going to hire contractors overseas to do this. I don't know anything about marketing. I'm like, oh, you're everything you're saying you're going to lose.
This won't work. And she completely has pulled it off. And if you go to the reviews, did you look up her app? I mean, it's legit.
Like there's like, I think it's like a 4.9 rating. It's like a really high rating, thousands of reviews.
And she completely has pulled it off. I'm almost positive. It's only two-ish years old.
And she also just went full time as of recently. So this was like a sizing.
SPEAKER_01
And she just started monetizing. It's like most of the app is free. She's like, yeah, I want most of the app to be free, you know, because obviously I'm trying to help as many people as I can.
I'm trying to find that balance where it's a sustainable business, but also mostly apps free. I just thought that was a bad ass story. There was a bunch of people there that had like really big stories, but to me that was a really just incredible, incredible win.
And she had a kind of an intensity about her. Oh, yeah. And I can almost tell when you were talking to her like, okay, even though on paper, you got no attributes, right? And we all know the rule.
You got to have some attributes if you want to win. She didn't have the experience. She didn't have the skill of certain things, but she did have a certain level of intensity.
And you could see that just in talking to her, like just the way she came across. She came across like a person to be taken seriously. And like, she was like a very small person.
It wasn't like her stature. She didn't have a natural knack at that. It was just the way she was talking that stood out to me.
SPEAKER_02
Did you meet the Vessi guys? So V-E-S-S-I. Yeah, we went out for lunch.
SPEAKER_01
Tony was the guy who was there as the founder and they make awesome shoes apparently. I haven't tried them, so I can't say.
SPEAKER_02
Dude, but they're hardcore in Vancouver. And so I, the lady at my hotel saw me wearing them and she goes, oh, you're wearing Vessi. Those are happening.
So basically, she didn't say they're happening because she's not 60 years old, but you know, she said they're cool. Those are jazz and fresh. Yeah. Anyway, so it's this shoe called Vessi, they look just like tennis shoes, but apparently they're like waterproof, which is a big deal in Vancouver because it rains a lot and it's wet. And the guy bootstrapped the company and he told me the top line revenue, which I don't know if we can say or not.
SPEAKER_01
Just say it and we'll bleep it.
SPEAKER_02
Oh, okay, fine. We'll say it. So basically, you guys didn't hear what I just said, but we're talking in the same ballpark of like an all birds or something like that, like a publicly traded company, quite huge, completely bootstrapped.
And I started talking to him and he's like, hey, I want us like, I'm thinking about like getting popular on Twitter. And then he started talking to me and I started giving feedback. And then he told me about the company and I, and he told me the size and I'm like, wait, wait, wait.
Why do you want to be on Twitter? You realize this is totally not worth your time and you are like way better than any of the Thread Boys, including me. Don't go on Twitter, dude. Just keep crushing it.
And the company that he had was entirely bootstrapped and it started as a Kickstarter. So he was like, I was like, why are you guys so good? He said negative cash cycle, which means, you know, people sell the stuff before they have to pay for the goods.
SPEAKER_02
He's like, we just have good terms with the manufacturer and we started as a Kickstarter. So it's been profitable since day one. And this is another thing where it breaks all types of patterns that I thought possible.
So starting in Vancouver, Vancouver is not a big city. I think the metropolitan area is like 800,000 or sorry, the metropolitan area is 2 million. The city is only 800,000.
So it's not like an epicenter.
SPEAKER_01
I went for a run and I like ran across the city and I don't run. So it's not that big. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
And it's like not that big of a city. It's in Canada, which I didn't realize how like Canada is kind of podunk. Like it's like, it's like, it's like, there's only like 30 million people in that whole place.
SPEAKER_01
It's like, Canada has the same population as California.
SPEAKER_02
It's crazy in the same population as like the metropolitan New York area.
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it's right. But the size of that it's bigger than the United States in terms of like the actual land mass. So it's like just, it's a lot of empty space or a lot of space per person.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. Like it's not that big and it's a little behind in terms of like, it's not like a sophisticated place. Resision isn't bad, but like, I remember when I went to the airport and they checked my passport in such an odd location.
And like, I remember they checked it like as I was going to the security thing to like scan my, my body, not ahead of time. I'm like, oh, you guys know it would be way faster if you do this, this, the, whatever. And so anyway, I met this guy and his company kills it.
And so dominated Vancouver. They love the shoes there. Everyone was talking about it, incredibly quiet and nice.
No like frills about them.
SPEAKER_01
They opened up, they opened up a physical store in Vancouver. You saw the video of that? Yeah. The video of the line.
There's like a line like half a mile long. And I was like, yes, you like, this is like a marketing stunt. You like paid people to stand in this line.
He's like, no, these are like actual customers. No, he's like, it's Monday. Weep this too.
But he said they're going to do out of their retail location this year. I was like, what the hell? That's a absurd number.
SPEAKER_02
It's crazy. This guy was really, really cool. So I'm happy I got to meet him.
But anyway, good weekend. We had a good time. We'll do it again.
You have another topic or you want me to go?
SPEAKER_01
I got one. Let's do, okay, let's do this one first. So we went international.
We went, somebody'd say offshore. You know, they'd be wrong, but if you could say offshore, they got me thinking about Off-A-Shore. Companies off-shoring money.
And like, I don't know about you, but I've always heard about this. But if you had ever asked me to explain, yeah, wait, how do companies like Off-Shore, what's a tax haven? Like, how do these things work? Do you actually know how the shit works? Because I went down a random rabbit hole last night and pretty interesting stuff.
SPEAKER_02
Dude, I have no idea what the word tax haven means, but I like using it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know. I don't really want one.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's right under Shell, Shell Corporation.
What do you have to talk about?
SPEAKER_01
Well, actually they're related. All right. So, so here's the kind of the headline or the takeaway, which is that companies like Nike, Apple, huge companies, right? The companies that we've all heard of use this.
This is not just like, oh, I don't know, shady crypto guys that are opening up a company in the Bahamas or whatever. This is like, you know, the most blue chip of blue chip companies. Apple at one point had like $300 billion off-shore overseas that they weren't bringing back into America.
Why? Because here's the general, like, first principles explanation. So, every country has a tax rate. So, let's say in the United States, the corporate tax rate, let's say is 21%.
Well, if you make money here, you're going to pay 21% on all your profits. But if you're able to shift those profits so that they're taken in another country, you can use that country's tax rate. Well, guess what? There are several countries that have a tax rate of pretty much zero.
And so, what these companies do is like, I'll give you an example of Nike. So, Nike did this brilliant thing that resulted in Nike paying like, I don't know, something like 3% a year tax rate on billions and billions of dollars of revenue and profits. And so, how did they do this? Well, what they did initially was they created a shell company.
There we go. Bingo. A shell company in Bermuda. And the shell company in Bermuda owned the swoosh, like the trademark to the Nike check.
And then what happened is, company in the United States is selling shoes and it might rack up, let's say, $10 billion of revenue or even like gross profits. So, like, after taking out and took out the shoes and the shipping and all that. Well, normally they just have to pay the tax on the 10 billion.
Well, what they would do is the swoosh company in Bermuda would then charge them $9 billion, let's say, in royalty payments saying, hey, you're using the swoosh. You got to pay us for that. So, all of a sudden, the taxable income in the U.
S. goes from 10 down to 1. And now they just pay the 20% on the 1 billion.
And the 9 billion that the Bermuda company got pays a tax rate of zero. Right? So, their effective tax rate goes way, way down. And so, this is what they did initially.
And this lasted for, like, you know, some period of time. But then they kind of closed these loopholes over time. So, Nike had this set up in the Netherlands and they had this set up in the Netherlands where they had, you know, some Nike international company over there.
They were doing this where in the Netherlands, they didn't have to pay taxes on the money for some period of time because there was like a rule where on royalty income, you don't have to pay taxes. So, they're like, great. All the revenue this company is making is the royalty income from the IP, the swoosh trademark that we're renting out, basically, to our other companies.
And so, they were not paying any taxes on Europe, Middle East, whatever. And then what happens is, you know, after 10 years, people start complaining. They closed that loophole.
The politicians high-fived. They're like, we did it. These big corporations are going to pay their fair share.
And Nike goes, oh, hold on. They get the blackberry out. They call up the lawyer.
They say, hey, one hole closed. Open up another please. Hang up the phone.
And the lawyers get to work and they realize we could do something different. Here's what we'll do. We'll create two Dutch companies.
And one of them will have a director in the United States because here's what happens. In the United States, the law says if the company is incorporated somewhere else, it should be taxed in that country. And then the Netherlands says, well, if it has US directors, it's going to be taxed in the US.
So it's kind of like those movies where the two guys are pointing, he's got it. No, he's got it. Wait, what? Nobody's been taxing this thing? And so they had what was called a stateless company, a company that was taxed nowhere, which is called Nike Innovate CV.
And it paid zero taxes basically. And so companies like Nike have been able to do this. Apple does the same thing.
Facebook does the same thing. I don't know if you've ever seen why all these tech companies have offices in Ireland.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, in Dublin. Everyone has a Dublin.
SPEAKER_01
I was like, wow, you know, okay, is it the fantastic world renowned engineering talent of Dublin? What is the reason for this? And the reason is because there was something called the double Irish strategy, which said, if you have one Irish company that own the IP and then another one that was a subsidiary of it, and then that one had US director, same thing, zero taxation. And so for five years, I think Apple made $30 billion through their Irish companies and paid zero taxes on it. And I just think this is how they do the stuff.
And by the way, Tim Cook goes and he stands in front of Congress. This is amazing clip where he goes, Apple pays every dollar that they owe in taxes. We don't depend on tax gimmicks.
We don't stash money in some Caribbean island. It's like, yeah, you stashed it in Ireland instead. Like what are you talking about here? And then like, you know, they've kind of shut that double Irish strategy down and then Apple goes.
And this is all this all got leaked from this thing that you probably remember called. Do you remember like the Panama papers? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That got leaked.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
Do you know what actually happened there? Panama was a country where this happened. And I don't know how it got leaked. I think the accounting firm that did a lot of the work for people got hacked.
SPEAKER_01
Exactly. The fourth biggest law firm was something called Mozac Fonseca. And basically this is the fourth big law firm.
They're known for like creating shell companies and all this stuff. They got hacked or not hacked actually, somebody just leaked 11 million documents. Oh my God.
They don't know who leaked it, but somebody was like a whistleblower leaked this thing. And there was like this team of journalists that looked at it for a year before finally going forward and publishing the Panama papers. Well, after that, there was something called and that's where like the sort of Epstein and Putin stuff came out of the Panama papers.
Then there was the Paradise Papers, which came after that. And that was leaked from this accounting firm called Applebee. And you know, and so.
Interesting name.
SPEAKER_02
You're familiar. You're a client of theirs. Yeah. Is there like a Hooters LLC that can handle my income tax?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. These guys do shell companies. And soft shells, tacos.
SPEAKER_02
Skillet case out. We like all types of shells. Shell macaroni and shell companies.
SPEAKER_01
Exactly. So, you know, they basically, they got leaked too. And then that's when the company stuff that came out and then you could see Apple going to their law firm, then they leaked the emails saying, we, we've, you know, the Irish thing is coming to an end.
We'd like to find another country that has this favorable advantage. Can you find us something in the Caribbean? Maybe in the Caribbean. Like, pretty much the exact opposite thing as he said in front of Congress.
SPEAKER_02
You did something that I think is funny. And so basically, when people discuss these topics, they use all types of words that are in itself are not like by definition are not bad words. And they actually don't mean bad things, but they use it in this context and people automatically think villain.
And sometimes I find myself using those words on purpose, but like bragging about them. So for example, loophole, why don't we just call it a rule? You know, like we're just following the rule. This is the rule.
We're going to, we're going to use the rule. They use loophole. Loopholes aren't bad.
Just the rule. Another one, manipulate. Why don't we just use like persuade or influence? And so like people use that word manipulate all the time.
Another one is exploit. I love that word exploit. I'm like, oh, so to efficiently use something like people talking about Amazon is exploiting their workers.
I'm like, what does that mean? Is that the point is we give you money and then we exploit you like we, you know, they use all these words. And sometimes I find myself, you cancel, you cancel Sam.
SPEAKER_01
Well, they just got famous bro.
SPEAKER_02
Don't don't ruin this. Well, they use these words and I'm like, that word, like that's the point is to exploit. We're going to use this in a very particular way and we're going to use it efficiently.
And you, you just did that where you use these words, but it's like, you're saying the word loophole as if it's a scam. And it's like, no, loophole is the opposite of a scam. It's right.
This is, we are playing in the rules.
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think that they do mean something, which is that they're within the rules, but not the, they're within the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law. And I think that's the, that's the difference here.
SPEAKER_02
Don't get all pro bono lawyer, you got me bro. There's bro science. Now you're doing bro legal jargon.
By the way, Tim Cook actually even said that too.
SPEAKER_01
In that same clip he goes, we not only comply with the letter of the law, but a spirit of the law too, which was, yeah, that's a lie. But yeah, I think you're right, which is there are rules of the game and you can play, if you play by those rules, you should not blame the player. You should hate the rule maker, right? You should hate the game.
And so I think that that's, that's where a lot of people go wrong, right? They hear this stuff. When I'm explaining these, I'm not saying Apple and Nike are evil. Really, what I'm saying is, I never really knew what this meant.
I never knew actually how it worked.
SPEAKER_02
Dude, you're a capital, you're a capital J journalist. You're just saying the facts.
SPEAKER_01
I'm a capital man. I think that was that myself. So yeah, I think this is kind of interesting.
And then it's like, what's the game theory? So one thing that Trump did was just actually pretty smart, which is another loaded thing you can't say. He was like, dude, these companies have like hundreds of billions of dollars overseas because what happens is once they get taxed in the low, low, low tax place, they can't just move the money back into their, you know, chase bank here in America and like, you know, go down to the ATM and pull it out. Like it would get taxed when it comes back.
So they leave it overseas. So this is money that never reaches. And so what Trump did was he goes, all right, look, I'm going to make a one time exception for you to what's called repatriate the cash, bring the cash back to America.
I'll lower the tax rate. It's like kind of like, all right, guys, get in here. You're kind of like, you know, the store owner like opens the back doors, like get in.
It's like a five minutes.
SPEAKER_02
It's like a gun give back. You ever seen those where you can like, no questions asked, just give us your guns. Right, right.
SPEAKER_01
Exactly. And I think there's some value to those scenarios. And so he made it like, you know, it's 15% tax on that cash.
It's like one time, one time only if you want the cash back in America so you can invest it here and use it in your corporate activities here. You know, here's your sort of like discount half price. Come on in.
And then that brought like, I don't know, 60 or 90 billion back in, but, but not like the full amount. He thought 4 trillion would come back in and they just didn't.
SPEAKER_02
Speaking of crazy people and loopholes and tax evasion, I've got a cruel story for you. And I have a feeling you know about this person. This is, this is the, I don't know if he's a Billy, but he's, he's, he's close enough.
Have you heard of Tim.com? You know who this guy is?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, he's, he's prolific as you like to say.
SPEAKER_02
Dude, this guy, that's the phrase here. I was going to say this guy's a prolific freak. He's a total freak.
So this guy named Kim.com has all these interesting facts and I read about him because he, he's like six, seven, 350 pounds. This guy's massive.
He's huge and he lives in New Zealand. Him and his wife, he married like a Philippine like beauty queen or something like that and she divorced him and all, and these people thought that they were going to like, she was going to talk shit about him. She's like, no, no, no, like I have nothing bad to say about him.
It just, it, the marriage didn't work out, but he was a nice guy. And so I started reading about him.
SPEAKER_01
By the way, what's his real name?
SPEAKER_02
It's so Kim Schmitz, but then he was known as Kim, Tim, Jim, Vester or Kimball. And then eventually he legally changed his name to.com. So the wife, the ex-wife kept her married last name and her name is like, you know, like Sarah.com. And so like the article refers to her as like miss.com. It's like, so that's her legal name.
SPEAKER_01
So I'm going to become Sean worldwide. Mr. Worldwide. This is my wife, Mrs.
Worldwide.
SPEAKER_02
Nice to meet you. Dude, that the article referred to her as miss.com. And so check this out. So this guy in the nineties, he starts in Germany as a hacker and he hacks something like 40 million or he claims this, but this is not verified.
He said he hacked into some like famous bank and he took $40 million and he donated it to Greenpeace. At least that's what he said, but TBD, if that's actually true because Greenpeace is like, no, that's not true. And then eventually he starts building all these other programs and all those like software that is like mildly successful.
And he tries to set and he's a hacker while he's doing this, doing a bunch of illegal shit. But while doing this, he's trying to send a file to his friend and the email that he's trying to send it through says, all right, you've exceeded the limit. We can't do this.
So we create this thing called mega upload, which eventually like it's huge. Have you heard of mega upload? Have you ever downloaded an illegal movie or anything like that? You've probably come across mega upload. Have you?
SPEAKER_01
Of course. Yeah. Never, never used it for textbooks, but definitely have used mega upload.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. So mega upload, it's kind of like Napster, but it's just a website. So you don't need to download a client.
So it's like Pirate Bay, I guess is a similar one. But again, you still don't need a client. It's just a website where you can like trade files and it goes viral because all these people would share files and he would put like mega upload like in the image.
So like that's how it like grew and got viral. And so anyway, he creates this thing and it swells. He launches it in 2005 and in 2010, he's basically, he's able to pay himself $42 million.
That was his personal income from that. And eventually after like eight years, he gets sued and Hollywood sues him. I guess I don't know what Hollywood is, but big Hollywood sues him.
The government sues him. The sign. Yeah. The sign. And they say that he made close to $200 million in personal profit from this whole thing.
And all during this, he's doing like this other crazy shit. So out of like 50 million modern warfare players, this guy was ranked number one. He was the number one player for Call of Duty.
Yes. In 2012, he was the number one person in the world at Call of Duty. He also finished first in the Gumball 3000.
That is, it's like a, it's a car race across Europe. He finishes first. Then he releases an album of original music with any like collabs with other articles, other artists.
It's called Good Times and it's not that bad of an album, to be honest. Then he creates the internet party, which is a new political party in New Zealand. And it kind of gained some traction and he's doing all of this while running mega upload.
Well, mega upload gets sued and he actually goes to jail for the second time. He's already been in jail for a few, I think a few weeks, a few months before for his hacking stuff. This time he gets locked up for a longer period of time.
And when they arrest him, they go to his house and his compound and they just swarm it, swat style. And in the house, they find all like 40 cars, like the nicest cars, you know, like these fancy Mercedes AMGs, Bugatti's, all this shit. They find all this art, but they also find a hundred and 75 million dollars in cash.
This guy had that much money in cash in like a, in a room in his house. He's kind of like a proper gangster. I mean, he's like a gangster of the gangster.
And to give context, mega upload had 50 million visits a day. It was like the seventh most popular website in the world at one time. It accounted for 4% of the total traffic in America and it had 180 million users and people were transferring 800 files a second on mega upload.
This thing was huge. He had, and it was ran almost like a proper company. He had 155 employees, you know, engineers, customers, service, admin, all this stuff.
And it was wild. And this is a wild story that like I just came across because I was reading about miss.com, his wife or his ex-wife.
Very fascinating guy. This guy's super prolific. He even created this thing called a mega car.
So he was trying to launch a car company that was like internet connected and it didn't like work out wonderfully, but he built like a handful of the cars, but super prolific, very interesting. And I thought that you might have a little bit of stories about this guy. This guy seems like he runs in your world a little bit.
SPEAKER_01
I'm going to send you this. I can't say this on the pod, but we've DM'd before and I just have to show you what's in this DM. This is not going to be good content, but you have to see this.
SPEAKER_01
Just like crazy and appropriate stuff. I'll send it to you after this. But yeah, this guy is prolific.
I feel like he's kind of like the rogue Mark Andreessen. Totally. Mark Andreessen is also surprisingly massive, a prolific internet guy who had a bunch of ideals and took at it.
Mark Andreessen just sort of took more of the straight path and this guy went rogue. That's kind of how I think about him. I'm blown away by this call of duty thing.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. He said she said thing. I mean, this is like rankings.
You can actually see leaderboards and he was number one.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. I think he had like a basement of like, you know, 15 year old Korean boys that are playing for him or something. Do I really believe that this guy was the number one worldwide call of duty player? That is insane.
That is so crazy. That's like, what's the story about the Uber guy Travis, where he was the number one WeTennis player in the world or something like that?
SPEAKER_02
I think he was like two. So basically the story is like Chris Saka, this famous investor in Travis were like at Chris Saka's like vacation home. Chris Saka, Mr.
Saka was there. Travis Saka. You know, that's how we got to, you know, that's how we got to explain the story.
So, you know, the difference between the two Saka's. So, so kind of polite. So Mr. Saka and Travis are playing WeTennis and Travis crushes the dad, Mr. Saka. And Travis at the end of the game goes, Mr. Saka, I've got a confession.
And he kind of like, you know, what's that princess movie with like a, I don't think the word means what you think it's the princess bride. He kind of like throws the we controller into the right hand. He goes, I've been playing left handed the whole time, but I'm really right handed.
And he just like obliterates them even more. And he goes, I have another confession. And he goes to the game, the rankings and he's like two or three and WeTennis.
And he's like the lift of WeTennis.
SPEAKER_01
Seven out of 10.
SPEAKER_02
We'll give him. And so, yeah, this Kim dot com guy, he's crazy man. We got, I would love to have him on the pod.
He's super interesting.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that's a crazy story. Also, I feel like he didn't, he didn't launch his own crypto token. Like the odds of him not doing his own token in the last five years, like that had to be like a one in one million chance of him not doing it.
He probably, I mean, he was like, he died by the US government.
SPEAKER_02
But yeah, he probably had like, I bet you he was like banned for like, you know, selling securities. I bet you he had some, I didn't look into like what his, what his ban was and what the, what the verdict was. But I mean, he was in like legit trouble.
I mean, he was in prison. So he probably, but what's crazy is number one and call duty number two, that he had $175 million in cash in a room in his house. That's, that's wild.
I don't even know. I would like to know how much like physical space that takes up, but that'd be a lot.
SPEAKER_01
Isn't it like always disappointing? It's like, that's just two briefcases.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, dude, on the Sopranos, I was watching last night, they gave a guy $75,000 and it was in an envelope. Like not a like, not a like a manila, like not even the type that you've got to go to FedEx for the type that you have in your home. I can't tell you how disappointed I would be.
SPEAKER_01
Like if I ever am involved with any kind of ransom or if I win some sort of prize, like I need the giant check. If I win a prize and if you're going to give me some cash, like just get it in the smallest bills possible. I want duffel bags.
I want, I want like a, you know, a Costco trolley bringing me the cash. Like if I get something and it's in an envelope, I don't care what's inside. I'm throwing it away.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
If it fits in my jacket pocket, I'm out. And if like, and it was like the side pocket of like a suit where you reach in. So you know, those pockets are small and they fit in that 75,000 or ever fit in that jacket.
Very. Keep it.
SPEAKER_02
I have another interesting thing that I saw. So have you been following this prime energy drink thing or prime? I don't know what the fuck is it. It's just in the Gatorade alternative.
Right. Have you followed it?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I followed it because a while back, I don't know, like a month ago, Ben, business partner Ben, he met some guy who was like involved with it. He's like, dude, the numbers are insane for prime. Like there, there's selling, you know, bleep amount of just this one skew and like let alone the main, the main drink.
And I was like, there's no way that's a crazy number. And then I think recently they came out and said some more numbers.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. What did they say? There's two takeaways here. The first takeaway is the numbers.
So Logan Paul said the beverage brand, he launched with KSI on, so in January 4th. So about a month or something ago, he said it did 250 million in revenue in the first year. And it did 44 million in revenue in just January of 2023.
So recently. And then he also said, but then check this out. Here's the exact quote.
He goes, do you want the numbers? All right. And in year one, we cleared $110 million in retail sales. Sorry. 250 million in retail sales and 110 million gross internally. So the takeaway here for me is one, that's huge numbers.
Two, what the fuck does it, what the hell does that mean? This guy doesn't even know his numbers.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. That's a second takeaway. Bro, you're off by half.
Like, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_02
Also, what the hell does 110 million gross internally?
SPEAKER_01
What he's saying is they sell wholesale. So because they sell this thing, let's say at Walmart. So in Walmart, it did 250 million in sales.
But to them, they're getting bought at wholesale prices. So the markup is, you know, what's, you know, they basically sell at half price, right? So they sell it to Walmart. They sold 110 million worth to Walmart.
So their company sold 110 million. The total product sold 250 million is what I think that has to mean.
SPEAKER_02
Well, crazy, crazy that this is that big. I've actually seen a few interviews with Logan and he says what the numbers are. And then someone from behind the scenes goes, no, no, no, it was this.
And he goes, wait, what? Oh, my bad. It was this. And it's pretty wild that like, I think Logan's a smart guy.
I would love to have him on the pod and everything, but it's pretty wild how he's really just focused on the content thing. And probably doesn't know much about the business thing. It's pretty interesting.
I've seen him like ask Mr. Wonderful or something about that, about like different stocks and things like that. And he's pretty, has a pretty rudimentary understanding of like certain finance topics that I thought for sure he would be somewhat on top of.
But I guess not. You can crush it without knowing that.
SPEAKER_01
Well, I don't know about that. Like I think he, I think he's like anything else. Like the way we are probably good at business, and we're just enough to be dangerous at the kind of like content, you know, like, you know, like when we see a YouTuber, both of us have had this reaction where we're like, oh, we're horse carriage operators and a Tesla just drove by.
Like this is when I see somebody on Tik Tok, you know, you might as well be, you know, it might as well be at Hogwarts with a magic wand. I'm like, we're doing something. I don't know how to do those things.
And I will never know. And like, it's awesome, but I just can't imagine myself really doing those things at the level you can do them. And so I think he's good enough to be dangerous on the business side and smart enough, obviously, to know what categories to go into and what who to partner with.
So like if you look at their moves, right, like just zoom out so that you can't, you know, you know, hear what he's saying or whatever. If you look at their moves, the transition from Vine to YouTube, great jump. The transition from YouTube canceled to YouTube, like, you know, rejuvenated, that's a good, good move there.
Then from YouTube to boxing, celebrity boxing, he ended up boxing Floyd Mayweather for God's sake. And he did all right. He did all right.
Yeah. And his brother's, you know, doing, he's one of the most, you know, high earning, you know, boxers out there. Maybe not a boxer.
Yeah. So that's incredible. Then the next jump, you know, for Logan was WWE.
So now Logan is one of the big stars in WWE, but he does it on his terms. He then transitioned his YouTube content into podcast content. He's like, you know, I'm maturing.
SPEAKER_02
By the way, have you seen him in WWE? He's really good. He's really good.
SPEAKER_01
Exactly. Like if I was 13, I pretty sure I would think Logan Paul is the fucking shit because I'm 34. And I think Logan Paul is the fucking shit.
SPEAKER_02
Like he's good. Like he's got the acting down. He's got the, he looks ripped.
He's good.
SPEAKER_01
And people love to hate on these guys for, you know, good, sometimes good reasons. They've done some things that are like, you know, whatever he did, the stupid video in Japan. He's gotten some trouble for his like NFT thing.
But like, I don't know. I think there's a lot to be, to learn from and admire in these guys. I'm not saying they're great people, perfect people.
I don't know them personally. I can't say either way on that. But I think from a marketing perspective, Yeah, they crush it.
15 out of 10, right? Like from a brand building, from a sort of learning how to keep riding new waves and stay relevant. I mean, these are phenomenal. The same way that the Kardashians are phenomenal in some way.
And you could disparage them for a bunch of reasons, or you could look at the things they do great and say, cool, I'm just going to take inspiration from the things they do great rather than hate on them in a very common way about, you know, the same stuff everybody else does. So yeah, I think, you know, what he's done here is pretty phenomenal. I think they're kind of him and KSI are kind of like minor partners.
SPEAKER_02
I think it's business. I think it's like a, like a, like a third, a third, a third type of thing.
SPEAKER_01
The operators get a third here.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. I mean, I saw an interview and it was either a third or like a 20%, but yeah, minority, but meaningful. I mean, this, this can be a billion dollar brand.
SPEAKER_01
Dude, I invited him to camp MFM, by the way, and I was like, yeah, you should come. It's going to be awesome. And he was like, dude, I can't get hurt.
He's like, I'm doing the WWE. If I go play basketball, I'm going to get hurt. Why did he reply to you? I can't like spraying an ankle or twist the knee and like not be able to go wrestle at WrestleMania in a month.
SPEAKER_02
What platform did you speak to him on? You know, I actually, what happened was, What had happened was, What happened was,
SPEAKER_01
I jumped into Twitter spaces where he was there and I just started talking there and then he DM me afterwards. And then I was like, hey, you know, you actually, he had talked about my clubhouse or metaverse tweet on his podcast too. And I was like, yo, you actually talked about my other thing, you know, I'm that guy.
And he was like, oh, cool. And so, you know, Twitter DM is kind of where we talked.
SPEAKER_02
Dude, that's actually kind of a hack. There's like a handful of YouTubers that have five, 10, 20 million subscribers who I've chatted with on Twitter. They only have like 10 or 100,000 followers on Twitter and their fans, children aren't using Twitter.
And it's such a good way to like get in front of them. And I've actually pulled that move a few times on Twitter. It's pretty, pretty, I'm shocked it works.
That's genius. We're going to wrap there? Yeah, we can, we can wrap there. All right.
We got to start saying the gentlemen's agreement every time, by the way, I keep forgetting to.
SPEAKER_01
Go subscribe to us on YouTube. That's it.
SPEAKER_00
That's the pod.