SPEAKER_00
Welcome to Office Hours with EAB. We're excited to be joined today by two members of the inaugural class of fellows participating in EAB's new Rising Higher Education Leaders Fellowship. EAB created the fellowship to provide meaningful professional development opportunities beyond what most schools are able to afford during the current budget crunch.

EAB's Robert Snyder sits down with these bright young stars to talk about how they're working to improve the way their institutions operate. Thank you for joining us and welcome to Office Hours with EAB.

SPEAKER_01
Hi everyone and welcome to Office Hours with EAB. My name is Robert Snyder. I'm new to the podcast but certainly not new to higher education.

I'm a senior director of research at EAB and before joining EAB I spent more than 25 years working for colleges and universities in a variety of roles that were way too numerous to mention here. Suffice it to say though I had the privilege and opportunity of walking a mile in the shoes of the higher education leaders we serve and support at EAB. I'm excited to be joined today by two of the rising stars of academia both of whom are among the inaugural cohort of fellows participating in EAB's new Rising Higher Education Leaders Fellowship.

Please welcome Renard Harris, Chief Diversity Officer at the College of Tarleston. Hi Renard, thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_03
Hi Robert, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01
And also Lila Carlson, Associate Provost at Pepperdine University. Welcome Lila.

SPEAKER_02
Thanks so much. Delighted to be here.

SPEAKER_01
Renard and Lila have agreed to join me today to talk about their experiences taking part in EAB's new Rising Higher Education Leaders Fellowship. Before we begin with the conversation with them, I wanted to give our listeners a brief overview of the fellowship. The fellowship is a nine-month cohort-based program where the fellows learn from EAB experts in each other during monthly sessions.

Which are currently all virtual in our pandemic world, although we hope to be together in person in DC sometime soon. The sessions include subject matter expertise on cross-cutting topics like organizational governance structures and funding the future, but also professional skills development that's useful for all higher education leaders as they advance in their careers. Things like change management and unconscious bias.

We also ground the fellowship in community building around structured networking and a capstone project. EAB created this fellowship as an opportunity to provide professional development opportunities beyond what our partner institutions offer, especially because we know shrinking budgets can sometimes impact the availability of these offerings. We're also hoping to use the fellowship to connect the fellows with EAB's experts in research to support their current and future professional roles.

And we included the fellowship any next-generation leaders at EAB's global research partner institutions. So those who are just below the vice president, provost and dean level, including administrative leaders and faculty with administrative leadership roles. And this fellowship we're thrilled as exclusively for our global research partners, those institutions that have access to all of EAB's research programs and additional offerings such as the fellowship.

And we rely on our partners, our global research partners to identify and select the fellows. They actually nominate senior leaders at their institutions to participate. And so that's really how we got to this moment where we're really thrilled to have Renard and Laila with us today.

So Renard and Laila to kick off our conversation. We'd love to ask each of you in turn to talk about where you are in your respective careers and why you decided to participate in the fellowship program. Laila, how about we have you start?

SPEAKER_02
Sure. Thanks again, Robert, for having me. It is an absolute pleasure to get the chance to talk with you and reflect on the fellowship with both of you.

This is my third year as associate provost at Pepperdine University and 13th year as a faculty member, lucky 13 at Pepperdine. And I was very honored to be nominated for this program by our provost, Rick Mars. I have to admit at the beginning I was daunted by the idea of doing the fellowship and everything that it was going to entail this particular year.

But I did take the leap knowing that it would be beneficial in the long run. The main reason I was excited to be a part of the fellowship was to learn more about what other institutions are doing well and what I could learn and bring back from EAB's macro level of research and expertise in higher ed. I was also looking forward to the networking aspect, the networking with other leaders at institutions across the U.

S. And it has been a pleasure to get to know everyone, to get to know Renard and others at the different universities and colleges and to develop these connections and learn about the different ways people are thinking and working

SPEAKER_01
on some of the issues we are all facing. Thanks, Laila. Renard, how about you? How about you, where you are in your career and why you decided to participate in the fellowship program at this

SPEAKER_03
point? Thanks a lot, Robert. Thanks for having me. A very similar story.

Background is faculty, teacher education specifically. Now chief diversity officer. This is like my fifth year.

So going from faculty to administration is two different worlds and now I get to explore both. And so, truthfully, I think my passion has always been the same from the time I was a middle school teacher to a faculty in higher ed to now administration. And so when I heard about EAB and when I was, you know, when my provost again recommended this to me, when I kind of looked into it, it was the capstone that got my attention.

Because, you know, with these jobs we have, man, you're living in a swirl. You are doing, you know, you're driving the bus, you're cooking the food, I mean, your day is full. And then I read about EAB and I learned that the capstone, you can actually take the time to focus on one thing.

And although, you know, I still have the swirl around me with all my responsibilities in my job, I get to focus on the one thing that I'm passionate about, that I've been passionate about from the day one of my career. So that excited me. And then the plus, the greatest was meeting other fellows across the nation, like Laila and others, you know, communication, having a conversation once a month with the strategy leader from EAB, getting all that data that they have access to.

So a lot of pluses came with it. But the truth at the core is the capstone and the opportunity to focus on the same passion I've always had, but to dig in and get data to dig into that. Wonderful.

I love to hear your stories

SPEAKER_01
of what you brought you to the fellowship and how you're using it. Since you both mentioned the capstone, let's dig into that a little bit more. One of the core components of the fellowship is completion of a capstone project that marries the fellows and professional interests with a corresponding challenge faced by their institution, around which both the fellow and the institution would like to make substantive progress with the research.

Reynard, since you started it off on the capstone, did you tell us more about your project, how you chose it, and how you're using EAB's resources and what you've learned thus far? Definitely. My project is more about access

SPEAKER_03
programs for Black and Brown and poor white into four-year selective schools. Because we know that that's a heavy lift. The numbers show, thanks to EAB, I have even more specific numbers, that not many Black, Brown, and also in terms of socioeconomic status, students, kids go to four-year selective schools, often two-year, often for-profit schools.

And so I've been greatly interested in this access. And my whole passion has always been that audience. I work in diversity.

I'm in love with all identities, LGBTQ, religion, all the identities that exist. But at my core, it's always been Black, Brown, poor white, and creating access and opportunity. And so that was my capstone focus.

And what was exciting to me, and I'll try not to take up too much time here, is that when I met with the EAB folks, with Mad, and they were like, just talk. Just talk to us about what you're interested in, and we'll help you land the plane. And that was exciting.

It reminded me of grad school, actually. So I got just a ramble. I just got to talk, talk, talk, talk, and he and Melissa, they helped land the plane for me.

Okay, this is probably what you want to focus on. It was really exciting for me. And they said, we're not telling you what you can do, what you have to do, but this is what it sounds like you're talking about.

And so that was exciting for me. And then it became access to EAB data. And I had no idea you all had so much.

And the cool thing about it is, and I won't go too far, is that they were sharing data with me, but not so much because they knew we had a bounded project to do. This is a nine-month program. And they reminded me, which I was glad, and I have to remind myself often, not try to save the world in one day.

What's possible that I can put on my president's table and maybe actually come to fruition. So in short, it's about access for Black and Brown, URM, for white, to four-year selected schools, and finding a way to make that happen. Thanks, Renard.

And thanks for the shout

SPEAKER_01
out to the EAB team. Each fellow has a senior research advisor they work with to guide them through our resources and a strategic leader that works with them hand in hand to make sure that they have access to those resources. Renard, I'm just curious, what have you learned so far with

SPEAKER_03
your capstone? I've learned that many things have been tried. I've learned that we have, I mean, you know, here's a short version. Colleges are doing tricks and turns and twists to make it work.

And what I'm interested in is that how do we not have to twist and turn, but we do the right thing before they get to college to make it work. And so what I've learned from EAB and the data they share is that it's so many different angles have been tried, working with parents, other access programs. But my concern is this, the return on investment.

Many universities are doing a great job making it happen. But the yield, I'm not too sure what it might be, right? So there's a lot of investment, which is good for a university to show community well-being and engagement. So I've learned that many things have been tried.

But I think what we are, where I'm focusing now is where's the loyalty gap? How do we find loyalty when we invest in these beautiful opportunities for access and let that return on investment make it actually work? And it's a bit selfish to say, I work at the College of Charleston, it's a bit selfish to say, I'm supporting this access program, I want you to come to my college. It sounds selfish to do that because the truth is you want the students to go to college. But in truth, we may have to find a word other than selfish and say, I want you to come to my college.

This is why I'm investing in a sincere way with you. So I guess in short, I've learned a lot about how many things have been tried. And now we're trying to push the envelope a little bit more to make it work even better.

Well, Renard, I'm excited

SPEAKER_01
to see how you push that envelope as we come up on your capstone presentations in just a few weeks. Lyle, I would love to hear more about your project. How are you using EAB's resources? What have you

SPEAKER_02
learned thus far? And where are you going with it? Absolutely. So as far as my capstone project, this is the year at our institution for the development of our strategic plan. Not the rollout year, but the design of it.

So I wanted to jump on board with that. I was looking for a way to involve my area in academic change and academic planning with the strategic goals and help the different groups that are working on that imagine a concerted effort for measuring and reporting our progress toward fulfilling that plan. So the idea is to better coordinate and integrate three major areas in my capstone.

So the University Academic Council integrate our work with institutional research and strategic planning. So the goal would be to better utilize the various processes that are already in place, not to create more work for everyone. We're already doing more than enough, but to be strategic, to be efficient so that we have academic changes that are actively pursuing our strategic plan, academic excellence and our mission that are key in that vision.

And then use the EAB resources. It's been so helpful to have, as Robert mentioned, the subject matter experts and the strategic advisors. I'm working with David Addis and Corey Davis.

And the resources and feedback they have sent have given me so many ideas of what works, what will work for us, because we're unique. We're a uniquely positioned Christian institution of higher ed. So that they've sent me resources, they've sent me a lot of feedback.

The new program launch toolkit is excellent. The whole academic affairs forum is a gold mine for any of the leaders out there that are listening, that are working in academic affairs. And another resource that has been very, very useful has been the liberal arts for the 21st century report.

Very eye-opening and confirms a lot of things that we know, but puts it out there very clearly in ways that we can use that to communicate to different groups that we're working with. So another part of the question is what have I learned so far? We're getting toward the end and we're still working on these ideas and plans and progress, but yes, we've learned a lot so far. So for me, open lines of communication are really important for problem solving.

You cannot work on this alone. You have to have other people on board or what's the point. So starting those conversations, asking for feedback on your project, just like Reynard said, start brainstorming and get some ideas and what's going to work for you and figure that out as you go.

That's really been helpful for me. And that's really opened the door for some very positive working relationships that I've developed with my colleagues here to help start breaking down those silos that we're very comfortable in working in. So I've also learned, this is something that's been very exciting for me, is that I've learned about the importance of thinking in terms, not just for my institution and for my role in my institution, but how this, how our work in these projects has larger implications for higher ed.

That's something that

SPEAKER_01
I'm really excited about. Well, Lila, I'm glad to hear like Reynard, you're getting so much out of the capstone. Since you mentioned we're coming to the end, what is one thing you're most excited to share back with your institution that you think they should be doing to address the capstone topic?

SPEAKER_02
What I'm really excited about is that every time I have a conversation with a different group, that new ideas and new areas of my project have been reinforced and also expanded. So every time I make that leap and say, okay, I'm going to reach out and see if this person can work with us or if this council or if this committee can work with us. And it's always a productive conversation.

Even if we find some areas that are going to be a struggle to implement or to work through, it's always worth the effort. Yeah, so it sounds like you're almost peeling back the

SPEAKER_01
layers of the iron gate of your operation and your organization and then revealing new opportunities to work together that we're probably there all along, but it sounds like thanks to your capstone project, you're revealing them for yourself and your institution.

SPEAKER_02
Right. And so one thing is that I've looked at and that has been reinforced in the resources is that it's really important to work based on according to best practices and what works well based on evidence, not just what we're used to doing. Yeah. And not just what we're comfortable with.

SPEAKER_01
Yeah, well, that's terrific, especially with EAB being a best practices research firm among other roles that we can support you there. So, Renard and Lila, you both mentioned about the connections with other fellows and we're thrilled in our inaugural cohort to have 18 fellows from a number of institutions that have administrative and academic roles looking at the list. We have folks who work in human resources, academic affairs, we have finance folks, strategy folks.

So we'd love to know how are you connecting with other fellows to talk about things like the challenges you and your institutions are facing as a result of the coronavirus pandemic and what it makes it difficult to enact the kind of change you would like to make as quickly as you might like to make it. So, Renard, we'd love to have you lead us off. Tell us a little bit about how you're connecting with other fellows around these sort of challenges and what you're using to do to

SPEAKER_03
bring about some change. Yeah, so I've been very lucky that when you all did the matching, you matched me with Professor Jonathan Russell of Central Michigan and his, it's like mine is about, my capsule is about access and his is about retention for students of color. So it's a nice long continuous line of our focus.

So we have very healthy conversations about both our capstones and the direction and how EAB is serving us in terms of data. The challenges though, as you can imagine for both our areas, is the digital divide with coronavirus, with both our areas and the situation we're in as a nation, as a world right now, is our areas were already changing with access problems for black and brown, retention. But now with the digital divide, kids at home, the neckwrees that exist in the society, that's one of the larger challenges outside of the university.

The second piece is the university itself. And I think Lila hit it on the head, just doing things that we're used to doing and not looking at it at a different angle. And I love what you said, Robert, is that it was already there.

We have a lot of these opportunities that are already around us. And I think EAB has said it's right in front of you. You just didn't pay attention to it.

And so we get a chance to talk about the challenges outside our universities in terms of the digital divide and the communities we're trying to focus on. At the same time, shake up the university to think a little bit differently about how things work. And I'll close here.

It always makes me shake a little bit when I hear a senior team member say, let's see what our peer institution is doing. If your focus is on black, brown, and poor white, you don't want to see what your peer institution is doing because they're doing the same thing you're doing, which is looking for a number to say check mark. So you want to say, we can see what they're doing, or we can go first so they can see what we're doing.

And so it's a different mindset that pushes that. So the conversations I have with my EAB buddy are about that pushing the envelope, but in a way that everyone hears it to make that impact. And, Riddharth, thanks for

SPEAKER_01
mentioning the buddy. So all of the fellows have capstone buddies that they work together with on their work, just to bounce ideas off as you're hearing, rehearse their presentation, things like that. And we are very intentional in pairing the buddies around similar either capstone topics or similar professional opportunities.

So Lila, talk to me a little bit about how you're connecting with other fellows and sharing that challenge, because we heard from all of you early on that you wanted to make have that network to make sure that you're not into this alone in your own institutions, but you have a peer network. How are you using that network of

SPEAKER_02
the other fellows? That's an aspect of the capstone I was really excited about and has been very rewarding. The regular workshops where we're in breakout sessions and working on topics and working through issues has been really fun too to get to work with lots of different people and a different cast of characters every time. But that constant with our capstone buddy has been something I've really, really been grateful for.

My capstone buddy is Johanna Cuenca-Carolino of Illinois State, and she has a kind of similar role in academic affairs. And we have similar kind of overlapping interests. I work with Student Accessibility is one of my areas, and she has a background in special education.

So there's lots of crossover in our academic preparation and background and interest. So we talk regularly about the issues our institutions are facing, COVID related issues, like Renault was mentioning, online teaching and learning, the political and racial upheaval that our nation has seen and how that's affecting our campuses. So it's been good to connect with her on those issues.

It's been a really challenging year and it's very helpful to build these relationships and discuss some of these issues outside of our normal networks. And the fellowship overall has been very beneficial, namely it is provided that allotted space and the resources to work on something that should be a priority, but because of COVID would probably have been postponed or ignored or looked over. Because a lot of our work right now is very reactive.

Every day it's a new thing we have to solve. So the fellowship has really allowed me to start some important conversations and to start thinking about how we move forward proactively on issues that are important for the future, not just getting through today and tomorrow and the semester.

SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so to be able to take the long view of higher education, both for your careers and for your institutions, and then also something thinking about my own career in higher education institutions, remember that you're not alone. That even though it may seem daunting in the day-to-day work that you do, that you have a network that is beyond your institution to say, you know what, others are facing similar challenges. And with that type of support and sort of interdisciplinary thinking, we can get through them as daunting as they might seem.

And I see Renarda and Lila seem to be agreeing there as well. So Renarda and Lila, as we get to our time together for this conversation, we're really excited to be about three quarters of the way through the fellowship, excited and sad, because you are our inaugural cohort and we're looking forward to celebrating you, but also sad to see you move on from the fellowship. And you're on the cusp of completing capstones.

So as we look to future participants in the fellowship, what advice would you give them about how to take full advantage of the fellowship? Why don't you lead us off Lila on that advice?

SPEAKER_02
Well, first, to anyone listening that's interested or thinking about it, and if you have the opportunity, you should definitely take advantage of this. It's a great opportunity to learn and to grow professionally. The resources and kind of the high level perspective you'll gain from the fellowship will help you work strategically and with the precision needed to make real progress toward your professional goals, if that's something that you're interested in.

One of the main things I've learned is how to make better use of our partnership with EAV as I've become more familiar with the various resources. So if I need to take a deep dive into something, now I know where to look and who to call. And I have those relationships.

I have contacts at EAV. I know exactly who to email and call. So in the fellowship, yes, also you work as a cohort, you work as a group, we've built this community.

But also there's a very specialized boutique experience, if you will, that EAV has embedded in the fellowship that has made this a very valuable time for professional growth. So I definitely encourage anyone to take advantage and to really maximize the opportunity in a way that will benefit them best because everyone's different. Everyone has different needs and different roles

SPEAKER_01
right now. Bernard, how about you? What advice would you give to the next cohort about how to

SPEAKER_03
take full advantage of the fellowship? Yeah, definitely. So I would say first to to attend as many monthly sessions as you can, whether they're in your area or not. The monthly sessions are just again, the ones that are in your area, you're focused upon, but even the ones that are out of your area, it's all about higher ed.

So it's always good to listen in to learn and to network. And the breakout rooms with colleagues across the nation has been really cool because you see some of the same people. And to your point, Robert, you realize you're not in this alone.

Sometimes you wonder if we all work at the same institution, right? It's almost like the different geographical places. So that would be the first thing to attend as many EAB sessions as possible, whether they're aligned with your area or not. The second though, I would have to go back to the capstone.

When they first introduced the capstone to me, I was like, am I writing a dissertation? What am I doing here? And what kind of research is this? And then I sat back and realized it's more about action, again, as I said before, to put in front of someone to make happen. And so the advice is when you decide what that capstone is, make it personal, make it passionate, not personal in a selfish way, but to contribute to your community, your college, but also think of something that you want to make happen, some action you want to drive, not just academic research to think about, but to make impact in an actionable way. That would be my advice, something actionable for the capstone and getting involved within as many monthly sessions as you

SPEAKER_01
can. I'm excited for our next cohort of fellows to take your advice and fly with it. Also, as you're both rising leaders, and you'll hopefully have the opportunity to nominate for the fellowship in the future, speak a little bit to the people who are nominating, your senior leaders who nominated you.

What should they be looking for in somebody that they're going to nominate for this fellowship?

SPEAKER_02
Lila, any thoughts on that? So I would, I think that they should identify colleagues that have an interest in higher ed at large that are willing to look outside their assigned role, and who are interested in seeing what other people are doing well. So I think someone that has an open mindset, that has a growth mindset that's looking to learn, that's looking to collaborate, and is looking for feedback. I think that's, there are some important qualities that the senior leaders should have in mind as they're nominating and identifying future fellows.

SPEAKER_01
Reynard, how about you? What should, what should senior leaders be looking for as they think about

SPEAKER_03
nominating the next cohort? Yeah, someone with that internal fire, someone that's interested in project kind of base, someone who keeps talking about the same thing every time no matter what you're talking about, they keep bringing up the same thing. I'm talking about myself this time, right? No, no matter what we talked about, black and brown, I swing it back to something I'm passionate about. So I guess someone an opportunity to exercise their passion.

So I would look for

SPEAKER_01
someone like that. So you're both higher ed leaders. You talked about the challenges your institutions are facing.

I'm the eternal optimist. So we'd love to get your thoughts on, you know, what gives you optimism about the future of your institutions and the future of higher education more broadly as you look beyond this experience of being together as fellows? Reynard, thoughts on that? What gives you optimism? What gives you hope?

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, momentum and courage. You know, I've seen momentum quite often in institutions, but then you need the courage to ride the wave. And oftentimes I see momentum and people in institutions pull back, you know, that's not what institutions do.

And so once you have the momentum going, you connect the dots and someone needs to have the courage to push it over the line. And so that's what gives me optimism that I keep seeing points of momentum that can happen if we have the courage to make to push it over the line. And again, the wave pulls back.

And I was like, oh, then the momentum picks back up again. So if I keep pushing the momentum with colleagues on my campus and across the nation like that, we'll get it over the line eventually. So it's just like you being optimistic that when the momentum happens, one day those with courage, they're going to push it over the line and be transformative.

SPEAKER_01
Momentum and courage. Well said. Lila, what about you? What gives you optimism for the future of your institution and future of higher education?

SPEAKER_02
I love this question so much, Robert. I have a lot of reasons to be optimistic at Pepperdine University. Namely, our people.

Our people are our most valuable asset. I have the honor and privilege to work with outstanding colleagues, leaders, students, faculty, staff across the board or people that I want to be around, people that I want to be like, people that inspire me, people that I want my kids to grow up to be like. So just being in this community is a true blessing, and I'm very thankful for that every day.

So that's, I think, that no matter what challenges come and the challenges that we deal with today, I think we are way, we are stronger than we realize. And we have, I mean, for Pepperdine, we have a very interesting story in terms of our ability to adapt and flex given challenges we had in 2018. We had a back-to-back tragedy.

We had a mass shooting and then a devastating wildfire that happened within a two-day span that impacted our community tremendously. We had to do an emergency switch to remote learning from one day to the next. And that was, it was a horrible, horrible event that impacted our community.

But it was, when the pandemic came, we had already done something like this. Of course, it was, it was a completely different game, but we had our faculty that we kind of had, we knew how to put on our battle armor. We had it already out.

So that was very inspiring to see the faculty on board with that and say, okay, we're a traditional liberal arts residential community, but we're ready to do this. We will make this work for our students and we will give them the best education that we possibly can in this scenario. So that gives me tremendous hope and optimism for the future.

I think, you know, with the people that we have working around this and with EAB support,

SPEAKER_01
we can get through this. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so we'll, your optimism, Ranaard mentioned momentum and courage and Lila, you added your people. And then I'd also say the learning from experience, past experience, which is so powerful.

And I think I've carried so many institutions and higher education leaders through these challenging times and more. And I'll say that's where EAB, I think, can come in to connect the dots for you. So let's wrap up, but you know, with this last question that I'm just going to throw out there, you're going to finish the fellowship in March.

You're going to graduate from the fellowship. You're going to have this capstone. What are you going to do the next day after the fellowship is over?

SPEAKER_02
Ranaard, Lila, you can jump in as you wish. Go for it, Lila. So I think, well, I know that I want to talk with several groups in my area and outside my area of how we're going to actually implement the capstone and the plan that I have to connect different areas toward our strategic plan and academic change.

So I think just continuing to work with different groups, breaking down silos, opening lines of communication, just to keep doing what we're already doing. And I do like the way EAB, every time we meet, every time, whether it's a small group or a large group, it's always we leave with an action item, you know, a tangible thing that you're going to do and put into practice. So that's definitely a mentality that I will carry on.

SPEAKER_01
Right, Ranaard, what are you doing after the fellowship is over?

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, man. I'm going to take those slides and email them to the Vice President of Admissions, Enrollment of Marketing, and then I'm going to send them to the President instead of give me 15

SPEAKER_01
minutes. That's the point. Great. Yeah. As you said, get it on the President's desk and we'll be looking forward to not only your presentation to us, but your blog posts that will sum it up. We can talk for hours.

We've had such a great conversation today, and I thank you both, Laila Emronard, for your conversation today. But more importantly, your active role in the fellowship and your active role as higher education leaders. As I said, I'm an optimist and thinking about the promise that you bring to your institutions and higher education gives me optimism for the future.

So thank you to both of you for a great conversation, and we look forward to our continued work together.

SPEAKER_03
Thank you, Robert. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00
Thanks for listening. Join us next week when EAB's Megan Adams and Will Lamb joined the podcast to talk about what schools are doing well and poorly as they compete to capture a larger slice of the graduate degree market. Every school seems convinced they can grow revenues this way, but Will and Megan say you better do your homework on the costs and the competition before you launch that new degree program.

Until next week, thanks for listening to Office Hours with EAB.