SPEAKER_01
You're listening to the Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies, and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you.

Let's get into the show.

SPEAKER_00
Welcome to the Higher Ed Marketer podcast. My name is Troy Singer, and I'm here with my co-host, Bart Kaler. And today we get to interview a wonderful, charismatic, and energetic marketer.

His name is Phil Cook. And I think, Bart, you're familiar with Phil in the circles that you run within.

SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that's true. Phil was introduced to me through a common friend. Phil is actually going to be taking over as the executive director of NACAP, which is the North American Coalition of Christian College Professionals.

And thanks. It's a mouthful. But people who are familiar with NACAP just call it NACAP.

And so he's very passionate about his role for the past 30 years at Lee University in Tennessee. But now he'll be making the journey northward here to Indiana to take the helm at NACAP. And I think he has a lot of really good things to say that regardless of your type of school, he references a lot of faith-based schools.

But don't tune him out too quickly, because I think you want to make sure that he has a lot to talk about with emotion and passion and how to articulate the benefit of higher education regardless of your school type and how important that is through storytelling and through other means. So really looking forward to the conversation.

SPEAKER_00
So true, Bart. So everyone, here is our interview of Phil Cook. It is my pleasure to introduce to everyone Phil Cook, the Executive Director of the North American Coalition for Christian Admissions Professionals to the podcast.

Welcome, Phil.

SPEAKER_03
Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to be with you both. And I'm excited for the conversation.

Looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00
As are we. And if you could tell everyone a little bit about yourself, your background and your role at NACAP.

SPEAKER_03
Well, I'm the new guy. I'm brand new, Troy. So I'm going to be just be started when this is when this is launched and when everyone gets to listen to it.

So I'm new to the Executive Director role, but I'm not new to NACAP as I've been a part of the membership and the organization for many years due to my work in particular in recruitment and in admissions and enrollment work at a member institution of NACAP for many years. So I've been a part of Lee University in Tennessee for 28 years and have been doing admissions and professional and enrollment work rather for 25 years. So I've been around the work for a long time, been around NACAP a long time, but man, am I excited to be a part of the larger conversation as we help admissions professionals from around the country in North America do their work better and help serve our students and families as well.

SPEAKER_02
That's great. Well, thanks, Phil. I think for a lot of people who might be listening to the podcast, they might not be familiar with NACAP.

You just kind of gave a little bit of a thumbnail of it, supporting a lot of other organizations. I mean, it is the North American Coalition for Christian admission professionals. And so really kind of focused in on Christian schools.

And I guess before we get into kind of the first topic, because I think that this first question that I want to talk about is just this idea of how much higher ed can have an impact on individual lives. And I think that one of the things I've always really respected about NACAP and other organizations like it, I think NACAP has a unique angle because of the faith aspect of it. But there are other organizations that are supporting education because of the student success and ultimately, I think because of the way higher impact ultimately impacts our society.

Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that and how that relates to the new role in NACAP.

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, of course, NACAP has been around for 50 years. And for the past 25 years, many of our listeners will recognize the name Chant Thompson. Chant is a legend in the industry.

After a long term tenure at Huntington University in Indiana, he stepped into the role as the first and only full time director. And for 25 years, he has served with distinction and built the foundation upon which all of us stand and work today. But we're working to have admissions professionals and specifically faith based schools for our organization to help change students' lives and to transform their lives.

So higher education does that. Education does that. So how can I have a better life? Well, education can do that.

How can I be a better member of society? How can I get ahead and advance in my career? Saw an article, I think it was the Chronicle of Higher Ed this week that was profiling earning potential and income. Those data are still out there that show students who get a four year degree will make more money over the course of their careers and lifetimes. So NACAP and schools like us want to help students find the right fit school where they can get the education with excellence to prepare them for their career, but also find the right fit where their holistic development is fully in place.

So that means emotionally, that means at a place as a NACAP, that means spiritually because we are faith based institutions. So that's the larger task before us as we work to help Christian education around North America and in particular as you make the question specifically at higher ed institutions. That's what we seek to do and we'll continue to do as we get started and cranked up in my role there.

SPEAKER_02
That's great. And I think that one of the things that I anticipate is going to happen over the next several years. And I think it's going to accelerate because of the pandemic is this idea that I think a lot of families are starting to look at higher ed, especially with the way that costs have kind of increased over the past several years.

It costs more for a higher ed degree than I did in other areas of our society. But I guess I'm thinking that as higher ed marketers, we're going to need to start articulating these extra benefits that higher ed brings to someone's life because I think that right now, there's a lot of families that are looking at it and saying, okay, you know what, my son or daughter did online for their junior year of high school. Do I really need to invest in a traditional four-year degree? Can I just rack it up with AP credits and can I just do a gap year to get them a little bit of experience out in the world and then just do online classes or whatever to just kind of wrap it up? Tell me how you see marketers really trying to help us articulate that benefit because I think it is a critical benefit that honestly, I don't want to see us lose.

SPEAKER_03
I agree with you. The challenge has been great in my role, in my work at one institution for many years. We've had to make the argument every day one-on-one, macro, of course, we have to do that and get the messaging out.

But the critical piece from my perspective becomes this is the people-to-people business, people select institutions or people, donors might give money because of the persons and the people with whom they're interacting. So the challenge is even greater now as you said because of the pandemic. Our challenge is the business model can't be sustained if we just look at it through an online or Zoom delivery.

We can't compete with the public. We can't compete with the two years and we can't compete with it on price alone. So what we have to do is make the argument that this is more than a commodity.

We're not just buying a can of beans. We're not just buying, we're not buying a car. We're not buying a cell phone.

That's not what this is about. There's so much more to this experience because when you choose a college university, you are literally choosing a universe that you're going to insert yourself and immerse yourself. So what kind of person do you want to be whenever you come out of that school four years later? So it matters the kind of faculty that stand in front of you or even may Zoom in front and Zoom with you.

What kind of person, what kind of values does that person have? Do they align with the values that we have as a family? And in our case with NACAP as families of faith. So what is that worth? Is it worth a sacrifice? We think it is. Is it worth a little bit of student loan indebtedness? We think it is.

And is it worth extra curricular programs or classes that make the difference to have someone become a better person? So I'm excited about the challenge. It's a bigger challenge in my opinion than it's been since I've been in this industry. We have to make the argument intelligently, cogently, and impassioned that choosing a four-year school and a faith-based institution is the right choice for our family.

SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that's great. And I agree with you. I think that those years of formative years between 18 and 22, I think that all of us who have experienced that traditional higher ed experience know how formative that is, how that universe has shaped us in different ways.

And I think that sometimes that also kind of sets us on a course. And again, this is another reason why I think it's so important for higher ed marketers to understand the ability to articulate the benefit of that universe, if you will, because ultimately 10, 15, 20 years down the road, those alumni are going to turn around and give back to the university and help other students kind of have that experience, help other students help shape them. And I guess that's maybe one of the reasons why there's so much loyalty and maybe attunement to alma mater.

And talk a little bit about that because I know in our pre-interview you had some interesting things to say about that.

SPEAKER_03
Well, I mean, literally from what I know, alma mater means mother. So what more affinity, what more emotion is there in the right traditional family setting, I understand sometimes with parents kind of upbringing and rearing there's trauma with that. But in the traditional setting, what more affinity is there for your mother, the one who cares for you, the one who nurtures you, the one who gets you along and sets you up for life.

So in that 18 to 22 year old time frame, it is critical for us to make those connections intellectually, cognitively, but also emotionally that this is something that a place that cares about me. And then I intern when I graduate, I care about it as well. I spent one year, one year as a minister of youth before I came to back alma mater and go to work.

Well, my take on that was as 12, 13, 16, 17, 18 year olds, you're just trying to survive, right? Get them to get through the day and hopefully they listen to you. But it's the 18 and 19 and 20 and 21 is when you see that progress happening, when you see that maturity right before your eyes, that's the payoff. That's the magic of the college experience.

Never again in my life at least, I don't know about you guys, but did I have the freedom to make the decisions that I wanted to make the mistakes and learn from those in the way that I did, but also to have success, to build confidence and set me up for success in life. So that 18 to 22 year old timeframe, it's critical from my perspective because we want our students, NACAP schools, all of our schools to have an affinity for their alma mater that will never go away because of the wonderful life changing transformational experience they had when they were a student.

SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that's really good. And I know that life changing experience as they've had at students and I see this especially in faith based, I'm a product of faith based, so I understand that a little bit more. But I think that like going back to the very beginning, I think the impact that higher ed really, it gives because of that confidence that's built because of those being able to have the freedom to learn from your mistakes, those different things of kind of molding you into the person that you are, it kind of impacts our society in the way that we're creating better people.

And I know that there's been some different folks that kind of have made some comments about that that you mentioned earlier. Maybe we can kind of unpack that a little bit.

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and it's a real challenge now because many of our schools in faith based institution, I'll talk about the one my alma mater where I've worked for so many years. We decide we describe ourselves as a Christ centered liberal arts institution with a liberal arts. It's been a struggle.

The liberal arts that commembers liberal arts is fading in a lot of places because families rightfully so want to see a return on the event investment. What kind of job am I going to get from this feel if I choose to come to your school? What will it cost me to go there and what will I be able to make when I get out of here? And I get all of that because the growth in many programs is in the professional areas business, communication, education, nursing, medical, all those are where the money is. However, I also believe that there's that the commitment to being a better critical thinker, the commitment to being a better person that when I'm in those jobs or I'm making money, we want people to be leaders who have integrity and have values that transcend what's out there in the world.

So the fact is, and we need that. We need that in its time of our lives, our society needs it, our government and our country needs it. Right? So, yeah, the better person, the critical thinker that's going to be a that has a moral base that's solid.

And again, for us, it flows from our faith. So yes, we think we can prepare you for a career where you can make some money. But yes, we also think we can help you to be a more well rounded person, a critical thinker.

Then when you're with your employer, they think highly of you when you're with your family or your civic duties or your or your faith based institutions that you're going to thrive as well. That's the challenge for us. And I don't know if you can tell, but I'm excited about the challenge that we have in our institutions to be able to bring that to bring out the past right now.

SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I can tell that's great. And I do love your passion about this. And Troy, that maybe that kind of leads us into the next question about how do we how do we get more into into passion and emotion?

SPEAKER_00
It most certainly does. And our previous conversation with Phil, he told us that because of his success that he's seen in his career and at Lee University, one of those things is bringing passion and bringing emotion and selling that as part of how you market the university. And Phil, could you let us know how you feel others could do that as well?

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, the there's no doubt that especially in universities, we are part of the academy. We are to be thinkers, we are to prepare students to think and critically reflect and to be more intelligent in that regard, more intellectual. On the other hand, I think the people with whom I've worked that I've really found success is, yeah, I remember what they said and I remember what they taught me.

Man, I remember how they made me feel when I'm around them. Do I leave this person's presence feeling more encouraged? Do I feel better about myself? So from my perspective, it's the it's the I heard somebody describe it one time that you've got the steak and you've got the sizzle of the steak, right? So that's the six, the steak got to be good. It's got to taste good.

But man, that sizzle that that beginning of it, that's the the intensity and the passion of it that we've got to bring. And students, Gen Z, I'm not even sure what the now I should know this what the next generation is going to be. I said, alpha, that's right.

You told me that last time, but alpha, the, but I'll tell you what, as a Gen X or myself, real recognizes real. So I don't want emotion just for emotion's sake. It's got to be from a place of authenticity.

And it's got to be a place that speaks truth. When you do that, and you have the intellectual commitment to train people the right way, and you bring with it an energy, my opinion, it's a recipe for success that will impact our students to have better lives and to be more successful. That's what we want to bring to all of schools and I think all higher it can do it.

Public schools can do it. I'm finishing my PhD at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. There is an emotional connection I have at this research one university that's huge.

But in my program with my cohort, there are emotional connections to the professors and the others in the program that mirrors this. So I think it could be done at all levels. But of course, I think it can be done at faith based institutions quite well.

SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and I think that's really important that you kind of mentioned that and I, we actually did a blog post this past week or two about storytelling. And I think that too many times I think sometimes as marketers and as you know, I think we're guilty as higher ed institutions, we're quick to kind of roll out the the outcomes roll out the numbers roll out the cost per credit hour. And we lose the opportunity to really tell stories where I think that's where the goldmine of emotion lies is within stories.

I mean, we've got a guest coming up in a couple weeks, who's the chief storyteller at University of Notre Dame. And he and I were talking on the on the pre podcast, the other day, just to kind of give a little bit of a teaser for the for that podcast, but maybe you can kind of respond a little bit too fill is the idea that storytelling, it's been used for eons, if you want to look at, you know, the way thinkers throughout time, Jesus used storytelling and through his parables. Storytelling is a very powerful way for people to not only intake content, but to intake it not only the content as well as the emotion that then sears it into their memory.

And I think that's what you kind of alluded to while ago is when people are leaving something, they're going to know how they felt about something more than necessarily being able to recite the facts of that. So tell us a little bit about that and how you've utilized that and how you encourage others to.

SPEAKER_03
I'm walking across campus to find a place to do this podcast and make it hopefully perfect for you guys and for our listeners. And on the way out the door, our admissions team saw me packing my office. And I stopped and took about it ended up being almost 30 minutes.

So I didn't want my boss, my my president to know. But I told some stories. I told some stories about my experience.

At one point in residential life, I cut my teeth and I read in res life, which my gosh, there are tons of stories there if the walls could talk and residents all around the country, right? And even on our campus. But I told a powerful story that was the most single, most galvanizing professional event in my life was a fire in a men's residence hall 25 years ago when I, or 28 years ago when I started working here. That story as I'm telling it of the 12 admissions young professionals in the room, they were to use an over to use an over youth phrase.

They were leaning in and listening to every word. They weren't born, but they knew there's something powerful about that story, the challenges in it and the successes. And everybody in my opinion wants to someone to hear their story.

So when I get to tell my story, one, I hope that you'll you'll take it and be and be gracious with it, right? And and affirm me in the story, but listen to it. And then when you tell your story, Professor or administrator, can I see myself in you and what you've done? So I think on our campus and hopefully what I'll continue to do is when prospective students go to visit a school, can they see themselves there based on the story that's being told in a macro marketing way or in a one on one way. So a tour guide, pictures on a website, a phone call, text messages, does this student represent me? And is my story similar to hers? I think I can see myself there.

Yes. So the power of story, in my opinion, is not the whole ball game. But man, you can make a case that it's the most important

SPEAKER_02
thing. Yeah, I love that film. I love the fact that you pointed out, you know, the different ways that you can get that because I do think that everybody, every prospective student wants to be able to experience and see themselves in in in the place with their going thing you're looking at.

That's why every school I've ever talked to said, boy, if we can just get them on campus for a campus tour, we can really get them here. Well, that's because they're experiencing and seeing themselves in the place because it's physical. But I often tell my my clients that, hey, we're getting ready to do your website.

And one of my biggest complaints is the websites that I see where there's just, you know, empty libraries, or there's, you know, here's the shot, the beauty shot of the of the building that no one is walking around. No one's in because they're taking these shots in summer and nobody's on campus. And for whatever reason, but my argument is, is that students can see cannot see themselves in that unless they see another student, another human in that.

And all the more important to make sure that our photography, our videos, our, our, you know, stories that we tell the engagement that we give are all inviting someone to participate and be a part of it. I mean, I'd rather see 30 pictures on the website of just people standing in line in the coffee shop or, or, you know, just candid shots, you know, kind of call them journalistic shots where just, you know, capturing real life because that's when we can really start to picture ourselves and see ourselves in the story. And so I love the fact that you had mentioned that.

And I, I love the fact too that again, most students, you know, 90% of them who finish a campus tour are going to end up at that school. And I know that was the case for, for my kids when they, when they were shopping for college. And it's, it's what I hear a lot of places.

And I think that being able to tell that story and have that experience is so, so critical. It's elusive now, Bart. I got to say that the

SPEAKER_03
whole pandemic and COVID has made this more difficult for me. I'm a bit of an old guard guy in that, in that room. But then when you say, yeah, we got to get him to campus.

Well, what are you doing? You can't get him to campus. How many, how many technology pieces can you do it? Obviously, we have to do that. We have to be nimble enough to do that.

But I do believe that one of the, keeping the main thing, the main thing idea is as we come out of the pandemic, one of the things about NACAP that we do are college fairs. And so our office in particular, we are eager to get back on the road and meet people and see them face to face. So they then can come to campus.

So it's a difficult challenge, more difficult than ever. But I think that one to one face to face connection to hear stories and to do on campuses is the best case scenario.

SPEAKER_02
That's great. That's great. And just kind of transitioning into this next thing that we want to talk about, you know, before we kind of end our conversation here today is this idea that you kind of alluded to the fact that NACAP runs a lot of college fairs.

There's a lot of one to one in those college fairs. And to me, I think that, you know, a lot of what we've talked about here today is the emotion, the passion, the storytelling. You know, how do you want to make sure that as you bring kind of new breath into NACAP and again, Chan has done an awesome, wonderful job.

I mean, he has set the table for the next phase. But as you bring that next phase of how do you see yourself kind of bringing that passion? I mean, you are a passionate guy, but bringing that into NACAP and helping all the member schools start to understand how they can be more successful in utilizing these stories and utilizing these emotional experiences and utilizing these face to face engagements through things like college fairs.

SPEAKER_03
Well, it's first just to one more time reiterate the fact that I'm following someone who's done something so well as daunting. The idea of it is, and to be totally human, obviously, it's a little bit intimidating. So I'm who I am and what I've done.

And so we're going to bring that same kind of energy, the came out of energy, same kind of excellence. And then we have to execute and do it. We said we're going to do well.

Those are my three E's that I work on all the time. Energy and enthusiasm, excellence. And then we're going to execute what we set out the plan that we do.

So that's on my mind and to build upon the foundation that Chan has set before us. But what I hope will happen is the schools that are doing this well, we'll just continue to learn from and the other thing about this is that we have a real strong collegial professional respect for one another. So we get together.

That's part of what professional development is a big part of this too. So those that are doing it well will continue to energize those that might be kind of wrestling and struggling. A very real challenge for us in this industry, in the enrollment industry, is the departure of leaders from the industry overall.

Not every week, but almost every week, I get another announcement of another enrollment position that's open public schools, research one university. So there is going there. There's a vacuum in that regard for leadership.

So whatever it is, we've got to find a way to do it. And what we're going to do is collaborate with our board and collaborate with our staff and say, All right, how can we do this field to bring that kind of energy and enthusiasm to all the campuses to ensure that we're doing it well? And here's what I think about in that regard. It's all about the students.

It's all about the families. When I feel a little bit discouraged or perhaps intimidated by the task, I think about students who need to hear our stories from our schools, students who need to have their lives changed and remember what my life was like by that changing. Then I'm invigorated to the task and ready to accept the challenge.

That's how we'll approach it. That's how we hope we will execute our plans moving forward.

SPEAKER_02
That's great. That's great. And before we kind of get into the last thing, I just kind of want to put a plug out for NACAP because I know that I've worked with NACAP for several years.

We've worked on several websites and different aspects of that through chance leadership. But I also know that one of the things that drives NACAP is membership. And we might have some people on the call that are a faith-based school that might be interested in learning more about how they can gain more professional development, how they can join a group of like-minded individuals for that.

I'll just give you a couple minutes just to say, how might they get involved?

SPEAKER_03
Yep. Well, thank you for doing that. Whenever the announcement went out a couple months ago about my appointment as the new executive director, I got two emails, I got multiple emails, but two right away.

One was from a Lee alum who is a high school guidance counselor at a faith-based school. And she said to me a couple things. Phil, congratulations.

I'm so excited you're going to get to do this. But two, NACAP has been the single best professional development instrument in my life as a guidance counselor. So there's a K through 12 education faith-based part of this that we definitely want to make sure we emphasize.

So if they're out there and they're, you're working at a faith-based institution and you're in the K through 12 industry, yeah, we want you to be a part of NACAP because it is about the professional development. My first and the second was, the second was from another VP for enrollment who said the same thing. Look, I went to a NACAP conference many years ago.

I met people to this day who are the ones that I commiserate with and learn from. My first experience with NACAP was the national conference. And when I went, I actually thought, wow, there are people like me crazy enough to do this.

And they do it because, because, again, faith-based, they love the board and they love their institutions and they love what we've done. So that was such an invigorating thing for me. So clearly NACAP.

org is the way to get plugged in and connected. We're eager to have to grow the membership. Absolutely.

We're eager to grow the professional development, the national conference that we do and the ongoing professional development that we do. We're eager for anyone to come join us because we believe it's a bargain and you're going to, you're going to experience it, get much more out of it than you, than you could have ever

SPEAKER_02
thought. Yeah, it is, it is truly a bargain, especially for institutions, but even, even for individuals, I'm an associate member just to kind of, again, transparency on that, that, you know, I do a lot of, a lot of work in the faith-based higher ed institutions. And so I've joined NACAP as an associate just to be able to, be able to understand and take advantage of some of those resources as well.

So Troy, I know you've got a couple of questions that you want to kind of

SPEAKER_00
finalize with us. Sure. Just one last one, Phil. You've done such a great job of giving us the big ideas and you do it so passionately, but if there would be a quick bullet or a nugget that you would share that an individual could implement that you feel would be beneficial or something that's currently working for you that they could benefit from, what would you share with them?

SPEAKER_03
I think I'll just continue the thought of this fire on our campus that we had. What I learned from that experience as a young professional was the details matter, that every little detail of our jobs, preparing for a podcast, getting the call sheet ahead of time so I'm prepared to talk about it. I was a server when I was a student and I worked at Little Mom and Pop Shop.

My training was here's the notebook and here's the menu, go take an order. It was terrible. It was crazy.

I graduated, went to graduate school, worked at a more professional place and they did thorough detailed training and one of their core tenants was ATD. The other was keep your head on a swivel. But the ATD is the attention to detail.

When you go to a table, you pre-bush, you get little piece. The details matter. Yes, the big picture of the dream of what we're talking about is hopefully encouraging and invigorating to us all, but the way to get to that dream and be successful, it's all about the details, the details that make things excellent.

That's the encouragement I'd offer to an individual, to an organization that say, all right, what can I be doing today that is detailed and down in the dirt? Now, me personally, sometimes I need help and say, okay, Phil, come here, let's work on the details. I hear your big vision talk, but get over here. So it's about finding the right people to help you do that.

So for me, attention to detail, making sure that what we're doing is going to bring us about success and results.

SPEAKER_00
Love it. Thank you for sharing that, Phil. I'm sure that for people who may not be familiar with you or NatCap, you've earned some fans today.

So if anyone would like to get in touch with you, what would the best way for them to do that be? Well, it's interesting because I'm in transition.

SPEAKER_03
So for three more days, it's a certain email address, but I would, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm just going to give you my Gmail address if that's okay. Will that be, would that be a little, Phil Cook, P-H-I-L-C-O-O-K, 111 at gmail.

com. As we get into NatCap, I'll assume those duties here in a few weeks and I'm ready to go. And eager, we have a wonderful staff there, not just chant, but a seasoned professional staff that are ready to go.

Got an email from them yesterday saying, Phil, Indiana's ready for you. I said, I'm ready too. So we're getting up there, but Phil Cook, 111 at gmail.

com. And then of course, all of the NatCap staff are eager to serve anyone out there who whose interests may be piqued by the work and the good work that we're

SPEAKER_00
doing together. Thank you, Phil. It's been a pleasure getting to know you during this process.

And I look forward to getting to know you even better. Bart, do you have any parting thoughts

SPEAKER_02
before we end the podcast episode? Yeah, I just want to kind of reiterate several things that Phil said. I mean, I think that the attention to details is something that's a huge, huge part. Because I mean, if we're going to tell stories, if we're going to communicate our passion, we have to do it with some thought and some planning and some details.

I mean, we can't just, you know, tell a story that doesn't have any details. And so I think that that's an important thing. And then I just kind of keep going back to the fact that we have got to, as professional higher ed marketers, really start to articulate the benefit of what our experience is all about.

I mean, especially if you're a school that's really focused on traditional undergrad, you've got to be able to tell that story. You've got to be able to tell that benefit. Because the assumption that that's just the path is eroding.

And so we've got to be a little bit more creative in telling those stories and in articulating that huge, huge benefit that very few other places can one individual have such a life change in a short four years outside of higher education experience. And so I think it's important for us to communicate that, articulate it well and tell those stories very well. Thank you, Bart.

Well said.

SPEAKER_00
As we end the podcast, we want to remind everyone that two great companies come together to make this happen. The higher ed marketer podcast is sponsored by Bart's company, Kailer Solutions, an education marketing and branding agency. And by think patented, a marketing execution printing and mailing provider of higher ed solutions.

On behalf of Bart Kailer, I'm Troy Singer. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_01
You've been listening to the higher ed marketer to ensure that you never miss an episode. Subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you're listening with Apple podcasts, we'd love for you to leave a quick rating of the show.

Simply tap the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. Until next time.