SPEAKER_02
The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZME App, enabling colleges and universities to engage interested students before they even apply.

SPEAKER_00
You're listening to The Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies, and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you.

Let's get into the show.

SPEAKER_02
Welcome to The Higher Ed Marketer podcast. My name is Troy Singer and I am here with Bart Kaler, my co-host, and each week we interview Higher Ed Marketers that we admire for the benefit and the betterment of the entire Higher Ed community. Today we talk to Joshua Charles.

He's the director of web governance and communications within the Office of Communications and Marketing of the Rutgers Business School. Today we talk to him about effectively utilizing your website to market your college. And I'll just say it up front, Joshua is an interesting guy.

And yes, he has technical ability, but he's one of those people who work on a website that has marketing at the forefront. And I love this conversation with him.

SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it's such a great conversation. I think that Joshua and I align so much on our philosophy on the way that we both think of content first and the user first. And I think that Joshua does such a great job of articulating that and really articulating the things that they've done at Rutgers that I think really impact enrollment, really impact that student journey, and make such a difference.

And I think that I really listen to what Joshua has to say. And I don't care if you're a small school or a big school. I think everything Joshua says can apply to you.

And we're so fortunate to have people like Joshua at Rutgers and a lot of the other schools that we've talked to to really be able to give us this great information.

SPEAKER_02
Here's our conversation with Joshua Charles. Joshua Charles has agreed to talk to us about some of the dynamic things that they're doing at the Rutgers Business School in relationships with their website and how it's positively affecting both enrollment, alumni, etc. Joshua, if you would, tell us a little bit about the business school and your role there.

SPEAKER_03
Sure, thank you. So my role at the business school is to oversee website operations and marketing technology. And that's for the whole school.

Our full school has 10,000 students, 400 faculty, 175 staff, recently now 50,000 alumni over the course of the last several decades. And really for me and my team, we're thinking about how does the website fit into the journeys for each of the different audiences that we have from prospective students, current students, faculty, staff, alumni, corporate partners, media. All of these groups, we want the websites that we have and there are multiple websites to be able to sort of serve the user needs as well as to positively influence the business aspects as well.

SPEAKER_02
Thank you, Joshua. And the reason why we had you on, although we think of a webmaster as being more technically minded, that you have, but you also are known for your approach of how you can utilize the website to positively affect both enrollment as well as the entire student journey. And would like for you to tell us a little bit about that, maybe starting out with the deliberate transition that the website made.

Was it back in 2015?

SPEAKER_03
Yes. Yes. So originally I came to Rutgers Business School in 2010. We had a rather static website that tried to do everything for everyone.

It was a single website and that was the only website the school had. And as we decided to grow our team over time, fast forward to 2015 to realize, hey, we need to have a mobile design because that's where websites were heading at that time. And at the same time, we're like, okay, this is an opportunity to rethink the purpose of a website altogether.

Now for our school, our communications and marketing team has website operations inside of the team. Whereas at the time, that was more commonly associated with IT. Because like you mentioned, websites, first thing that folks think about is technical aspect.

But to me, a website is a marketing platform first and foremost, and it has technology associated with that. But its goal is to shape communications and marketing goals. So we used the 2015, 2016 website redesign process as a way to rethink the strategy of our website so that instead of a single site for every audience, we decided to split that up.

First thing, we need a website that is for external audiences, primarily prospective students so that when somebody is searching full time MBA content, for example, the main website, the one that we really want them to go to because we want to help that prospective student journey, we want those audiences to find the right pages and search engines. And once they get onto the page, we want them to be able to have an experience that's tailor made for what their needs are. That specifically means things like, hey, here's an upcoming admissions event.

Here's how you can go to sign up for a newsletter, for example. Here's where the admissions details are. And when you have a singular focus, it makes it a lot easier to figure out what types of content and design can you shape your website for in order to meet that specific user's needs.

And that's the, at a very high level, that's the approach that we took with the website back then. And of course, there's a whole bunch of other layers to that. But that is why we started to be much more strategic about how we're going to handle sites going forward.

SPEAKER_01
I think that's such a great point. And I love the way that you guys approached that because I think too many times, and what I see a lot of times, and Joshua, you've been doing this and you probably saw this as well, is that the website tends to be kind of this house that was built in the mid 90s or early 2000s. And it's like, oh, well, we need another room.

So we're just going to stick on another addition. And hey, let's, let's, you know, have another story added on. And it just gets to be this unwieldy beast.

I mean, sometimes I talk to clients and even small to medium sized schools, they might have 8,000, 10,000 pages. And I'm like, we don't need that for enrollment. We don't need that level of content sometimes for just enrollment.

And so I really, I'm really glad to see you guys have just kind of started from the question of what do we need per audience for their journey? And I think that's a really important, important thing. So how do you do that as far as when you start making some of those decisions about the types of content? I mean, I think you made a good point that, you know, it's not, it's a, it's a tool. It's, and it has some technical aspects to it.

But at the end of the day, it's, it's a marketing platform and ultimately a content platform. How do you kind of make those decisions about the, the messages and the images and how you're positioning those within the context of this tool? Sure.

SPEAKER_03
So I like to describe it as the intersection between fully understanding the audience and what their journey and what their needs are and your organization's business goals. So splitting those in half for the, for the audience, it's where do they read about business goals when they're looking for which college to enroll in? What types of questions are they asking? Is it related to admissions, their, their GPA, the curriculum? What is it that they're seeking and searching for those, those why questions? And then once you have a good understanding of what those are from doing marketing research, perhaps having forums on your website, we were asking for, for comments or anything like that so that folks that are getting to the website can just tell you exactly what they're looking for. You're, you synthesize all of that data and then you map out, okay, this is what students are looking for, for each of the different programs that we have.

And here's what their journey looks like before they get to our website. Once they get to their website, once they've had a chance to engage with maybe the program director or staff or other students, hopefully, once you have an idea of what that journey is and what they're looking for. And that can be an iterative process because the reality is teams have very limited resources.

So no one is going to be able to have full resources to map out a full journey before they start. They, it's something that you have to work towards over time. But once you have that good understanding of what the audience is looking for, what their needs are, so you understand how to meet those needs, then you think about what are your own business goals, particularly enrollments or engagement or just getting your brand out there.

And then you figure out how do you map your needs along their journey? Because at the end of the day, the goal has to remain customer-centric. And from there, that can give you an idea of this is the type of content that we need to have on our site. These are the types of things that folks are looking to engage with.

And if sure, if you want to jazz it up with ambient videos and all sorts of things, those things are nice too, as long as it doesn't get in the way of taking action. Right. So figuring out all of these details, and it's complicated, but you need a team of folks that can help you if that's available. If not, then by all means trying to network with other parts of the university, particularly student services, trying to pull internal resources to figure these these detailed things out before I ever decide to make changes to the website.

Because otherwise, that just creates a situation where we're just changing things for the sake of changing things. So again, I know it sounds complicated, but just thinking about the user journey first and foremost, your business needs, how do you merge those things together? And then from there, that can help determine the content, the design. You can talk about like, OK, these are the technical things that we need in order to make this content work.

And that is ultimately how we produce this site. And of course, again, a website redesign took us two years to do all of that. And also, it's a process, but that's we believed in that process.

So that's what we stuck with.

SPEAKER_02
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SPEAKER_01
I like that we had Jay Baer on the episode on the pirate podcast a few weeks ago. And he made a big comment. And one of if you read any of his books or follow any of his his materials, he really makes a big big push that the fact that, you know, we need to answer the questions that people have.

I mean, it goes back to being customer centric, you know, prospective student centric and, you know, doing the research and understanding those. And sometimes I know I talk to some of my clients and working with the enrollment team or with student services and saying, what are the questions that people ask? You know, if you took those questions, you could probably come up with 50 of them over lunch. If you took those questions and then, you know, flipped it around and wrote a 500 to 750 word essay that answered those questions and did a little bit of keyword research.

You just had a blog strategy ready for a year and you've got a lot of really good content. And so a lot of times I think that understanding the customer's needs, the journey's understanding ways to get that content in front of them and and start providing that to them. I think it's such a such a valuable thing.

And I'm so glad that you guys are doing that and that you've got kind of a process in place that you've been explaining some things as well. So well, as you think that through, I know one of the things that I even looking at your website, you guys have outcomes on there. And I think that's one of the big, big things that students are looking for is, you know, if I'm going to invest in this, what's going to be the outcome for me at the other end? How did that messaging kind of get positioned with alumni? I mean, certainly the alumni are your success stories.

How did you guys use that as part of the redesign?

SPEAKER_03
Sure. So it's a great question. One of the interesting approaches to the specific language that we have on the website, particularly outcomes, particularly for business students, that is something that we found not only on the prospective students side, when they're asking questions of admissions, these are some of the things that come up about, OK, if I am looking at Rutgers Business School, like what are some of the career outcomes for me in finance or accounting or supply chain management? And then when we have those conversations directly with students or with student services who are having the conversations anyway, you start to hear the same questions about what are the outcomes? What are the industries? What are the specific names of the companies? What are some of the job titles? And then you have those those conversations with alumni and they're saying the same thing.

We realize, OK, prospective students are asking questions about this. Current students are asking questions as they progress through their own journey. Alumni who are filling those roles and are coming back and sharing their experience with experiences with other students, they're saying the same thing.

So for when we have that level of alignment and again for for business school students, I can't speak for math and engineering and things like that. But for business school students, we realize, OK, that is a great content opportunity. This is an opportunity for us to be able to look through our data, asked alumni where they went, whether that is 90 days after graduation, whether that's five years, 10 years, have a wide variety of alumni come back and give us their experiences.

Hopefully there's a process in place to collect that information that sometimes can be a challenge because we can't assume that alumni are just going to reach out to us whenever they want to. So it's important for the alumni offices development to maintain relationships over time so that when they come to asking these sort of questions about the experiences so that we can go back and write about that content and those outcomes on our website and our marking materials on our billboards along 280 and all of these other roads in New Jersey. We're relying on facts, but we're basing that off of real experiences from our alumni and from the questions that students are looking for while they're in the program, as well as the questions that prospective students are looking for as they begin their own journey.

And again, it's it's a great opportunity to to have those content ideas come from that audience.

SPEAKER_02
Joshua, it's wonderful to hear you talk about the specific user audiences, whether it's prospective students, alumni, but could you describe to us how you've positioned the website to address the entire student journey?

SPEAKER_03
Yes, so the thing that we decided to do is think about, again, as we were talking about before, you know, first identifying what all of the different audiences are. But from there, how do you create website experiences and I would say sort of navigation paths along the way to support all of these different audiences? So the first thing that we did during that website redesign process 2015-2016 is split our original website into a prospective student. And that's our main site.

And then we have a now a separate site specifically for current students, faculty and staff. And we're thinking about what the alumni pieces right now. We decided that, sure, we can have some information about, hey, here's how to update your contact information.

Or here are some really cool stories about things that have been going on in the school lately. And an alumni can come to that part of the website and find information. But for them, we actually want to create a more engaging experience.

So we're developing this platform that allows alumni to log in and engage with each other. And it's much more personal that way. So it's not more of a, hey, come to this static website and read about information that everyone has access to.

Here's your personal section instead, that's specifically for RBS alumni. So for us, we decided our main website is going to be the prospective student space. And our internal site is going to be for current students along their journey.

And then this separate login platform specifically for alumni, that's going to be their space. And along the way, we need to just make sure that we are on the same page of communications and marketing with the student services office as well as the alumni group. So that we're all aware of the types of content that's going to be helpful along each of those three stops.

And at the same time, making sure that we are just allowing each of the audiences at any point in time to ask questions, to engage and things like that. So it's a trifecta approach. And, you know, outside of those three groups, again, we have the media, the journalists and things like that on our main website as well.

But, you know, for the students, it was just very important for us to think about every step along the way and to make sure that they're not siloed, even though they're three separate websites. There is communication and experiences that are connected across those from the types of content that we create as well as the relationships that we have inside the school between the stakeholders who manage the different audiences.

SPEAKER_01
I like that because I think it's so important. You mentioned the silos and we've talked to several guests on the show about just the ideas of silos. And it came up the other day, someone was talking about silos and they were like, oh, we don't have silos.

We have cylinders of excellence. And they were they were being serious about it and taking pride in that. But I think that the idea of really being able to allow people, allow prospective students, alumni, the different audiences to be able to what I would almost call some personalization, being able to, you know, go to the content and go to an area that's going to be more about their needs as opposed to forcing them into a generalized area to be able to then have to find their, you know, to meet their needs.

I really think that's a really good approach to how you do that. And I applaud you guys on that. Help me understand a little bit too about how do you help the transition between, you know, that, that, you know, matriculated student.

I mean, they've been on the they've been on the the public website through their journey. They, you know, go through orientation. They go through orientation.

Now they're now they're an enrolled student. Now they're being introduced into that new intranet for enrolled students. And then, you know, once they graduate, you've got a lot of students now, you know, last week, a couple of weeks ago, they've graduated.

Now they're moving into more of that extranet for alumni. How do you kind of communicate that that transition that makes it very natural and easy for them and not kind of like a shock to the system to say, well, I'm used to this, why am I changing now?

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, so that's that has been one of the most interesting sort of journeys just for us as a school, because you look across the entire Rutgers University system. I think we all all of the different web teams are trying to to make sure that the transition from a prospect to an admitted student to an enrolled student. And just what that experience looks like, not just from the website, but from all of the different technical platforms that students have to see once they become a student.

The thing that I think is critical to the success of that is communication, communication, communication. And what I mean by that is that we are communications and marketing. There's separate teams for every single program in the school.

Now that is 20 plus. We have to be able to think about what are all of the natural ways that a student may seek information that may be phone calls that may be using Google search to find information, whatever shows up there. That could be emails, bulletin boards that are in the office and the internet.

From there, we think about, OK, here are all of the ways that students may naturally look for information. How do we make sure that in each of those different areas, we are placing the correct information about what they should be looking for in those places. And that is going to require a lot of regular communication between the folks who manage the websites and the folks who are helping with internal communication inside of the school, which is usually the dean's office, to just make sure that we are communicating in a two way conversation, not one way, a two way conversation with each of the programs to say, OK, here are all of the different websites that we have.

This is why we have them. This is what they're for. For your students.

This is where you should be sending them with they have questions about the curriculum career management, anything like that. Just make sure that in orientation, once they become enrolled in each of the classes, maybe that in their LMS, for example, a canvas or blackboard that the faculty are communicating. Hey, this is where you go for resources.

It's part of the syllabi. Every main document that they see their regular email communication that they have from the professors, from their staff. When they go into their offices to speak to their advisors, everyone is on the same page about what is the quickest way to access information that is helpful for a student to be able to complete their their classes and their time at Rutgers in a reasonable and fast process.

It has to be that has to be the goal. In order to do that, that means that sure that we oversee the website, but a huge part of our job is also internal communication. And we can't just think about ourselves as just the content design and the tech folks for the website.

It also has to be that plus internal stakeholder collaboration, I would say. And, you know, it's not always going to be easy when you have that many groups that that have to be on the same page. But we can't sort of set a low bar because at the end of the day, the stakeholders that are our students and anything that we don't do well or miscommunicated affects their experience.

And when their experience is affected, everyone's experience is affected. So we have to make sure that these sort of things are well communicated. And that that really relies on strong leadership to be able to make sure that everyone is working towards shared outcomes.

SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think that's great. There's a book that I'm reading that I've been recommending lately called Good Services. It's by Lou Down.

He's the he's in charge of a lot of the service design in the UK. And I really like it because he's doing exactly what he kind of maps out a process for what you're talking about is that not only can we just do the things that we typically think of design like websites and communications and things like that. We actually have to design the service around that so that, you know, if we're thinking about a student, how do we remove all of the challenges that they have to succeed? And I really like the fact that you guys are really trying to do that by communicating with all the different departments and how that works.

And and I think that's challenging for a lot of schools. I mean, I work with some smaller schools. And and I know that with with all schools, I know it's the case, but especially with smaller schools, there's always this challenge about restrained resources.

I mean, it's like, hey, we don't have enough people, we don't have enough budget, we don't have enough time. Everything is is kind of a little bit of a constriction. I mean, how do you how do you kind of maximize these results with your with trying to manage these restrained resources? I'm sure that you guys ran into it, even with I mean, even with a top name business school.

I mean, it's not unlimited. You have to work within within, you know, within some boundaries.

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, you're exactly right. You know, it's it's always, I feel like the the every other week question that comes up in terms of like, OK, we have a lot of ideas. We we go on walks.

We have internal conversations in person on Zoom. And that's just our team. And then there are the monthly meetings that I have with various groups from like executive education to it.

And just to make sure that we're all trying to to work towards shared outcomes. The reality is we're always going to have restrained resources. And I think sometimes where it gets overwhelming is in thinking about like, oh, these are all of the different things that that we have to do.

That may be the case. But at some point, we have to accept what our strengths are and maybe what we have to kind of let go. Or at the very least, say, you know what, here's our calendar.

These are the things that we're that we're excited about that we're proud to try to achieve. And these other things, it doesn't mean that they're not important, but it means that we don't want to burn out our employees to try to ask them to work 5060 hours in order to to just check a box to be able to say that, hey, these 50 things that we set out to do this year that we would like to do. We're going to do them no matter what like that.

That can't happen. Like we can't try to make the school be perfect in every way shape or form at the expense of the employees because the employees are central to the student experience. And again, like if when the student, the staff side of things doesn't work well, it ultimately impacts the students.

So what I try to do is just decide, okay, like for example, this summer, we were we recently mapped out here are the the five areas that we would like to focus on for each individual on our web team and decided, okay, one of those is going to be specific customer journey content revamping of our graduate programs and just at least thinking about how do we make sure that the content is fresh and that we're more accurately speaking to the needs of graduate prospective students in the age of COVID. Because that is significantly different than it was two years ago and our web content may not be up to date. And for each of the individual individuals on our team, we say these are the five areas that we're going to work towards.

Now, it would be great to be able to say at the end of that. Yes, we nailed everything, but it's more about just working towards goals that we would feel proud of. And we can we can make adjustments as we go, but I am not going to sacrifice these these these these these long goals at the expense of the staff.

And, you know, those are hard conversations because at some point you might have to have a conversation with your director or your dean about what the priorities are. But those are conversations that we in leadership positions have to be willing to have because again, it just as we say, websites and not for every one. Every goal may not be achievable and we have to decide as a school and as leaders, what are the things that are absolutely most important to us? What is it going to take to do those things? Are we staffed enough to be able to execute those? And what's second tier, third tier priorities? They could be stretch goals.

It would be nice. But if it comes at the expense of the staff morale and what they can do in their sacrificing their nights and weekends away from their family, that's that's a no go. So again, it's it's not easy, but we have to have conversations about what's realistic and what's feasible.

And those conversations need to be had from a leadership standpoint. And once you have them, they need to be abided by as we continue to work towards the goals for the school.

SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I like that. And it goes right with what you said earlier about the idea of having those conversations, having those. I mean, it's it's in today's day and age.

I don't care what industry you're in. I think the more and more that we talk, the more and more that we can have those conversations, the more critical it is because, you know, it's it's not the way it's always been. It's so dynamic in every aspect of what we're doing.

And, you know, it's a lot easier to do a lot more things than we used to be able to do. And so I think there has to be hard decisions made conversations had priorities developed because at the end of the day, we just cannot do everything that we want to. Because sometimes that limited resources just time time and love itself.

SPEAKER_02
Joshua, in every episode, we ask our guest if there was a piece of advice that they could leave either for their colleagues and maybe in your instance, your marketing colleagues that our listeners could implement immediately or soon after listening to the episode. What advice or piece of advice would you offer?

SPEAKER_03
The first thing that comes to mind is networking internally. And what I specifically mean by that is try to find people that can help champion your ideas. Because sometimes you might come up with like a a change to a workflow for for student services or communication, marketing or it whatever the subject may be.

And that idea has to be shared with a one of the deans who has to make the ultimate decision about how you move forward with something. And they have so many other responsibilities and things that they have to think about. In in my experience, the things that are helpful and the conversations that I end up having with staff from other Rutgers schools about like, Hey, I have this challenge in my school.

And I just wanted to know what you think or things like that. We talk about try to find other folks who can buy into an idea so that the more different individuals are talking about your vision, your goals to senior leadership about things that you would like to see happen in the school and or your team. The easier it is for those things to have success.

So, for example, if we're thinking about, Hey, we want Salesforce to really be the platform that is going to be helpful to manage prospective student data, current student data, corporate partners and all of these other audiences. But, you know, we're really not there yet. And that's a very expensive proposition.

It's one thing if it's just the IT director that's saying that it becomes a different thing when it's the IT director and it's communications and marketing and it's exact ed and it's alumni relations. And everyone is on the same page talking about things over time. It then becomes the idea of the dean and like, Okay, all of these different folks are saying like, This is important and an important thing.

This is maybe something that we should move forward with. We'll get the right stakeholders to make it happen. I've tried that approach several times on things that would be helpful for the school as a whole, even though they're not necessarily communications and marketing things like the building of an internet to create that personalization for current students.

For example, and it has ultimately worked. Now, we still have to figure out implementation, but we got the idea agreed upon by our deans to move forward with because we were having conversations with different stakeholders around the school about, Hey, this would be a great idea. And the more people talk about things, the more they can they can work out.

So my advice is to just really spend a lot of time on networking and helping each other for folks that are either within the same school or if you work in a larger university folks that are across the campus so that that that collective change can be really powerful. Instead of it just being your voice that's trying to change something.

SPEAKER_02
Thank you, Joshua. It's very well said. I'm sure that there will be people that would like to contact you after this podcast is listened to what would be the best way for listeners to reach out and connect with you.

SPEAKER_03
I think the fastest way is linked in if you search for Joshua Charles. I'm I believe it's linked in.com for Joshua Charles or on on Twitter.

You can find me there as well. And those are the easiest ways to find me. I'm always happy to chat about anything website related leadership related higher.

I don't care. I feel like we can't look at different schools as competitors all the time. We're all working towards the same goals in different ways.

And the more that we as a community can help each other, I think we're all better for it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02
And you reminded me that you are a wonderful follow. So I would put it out there to our listeners, even if you don't feel compelled to connect with Joshua, at least follow him because you share a lot of great content. And thank you very much for that.

And thank you for being a guest on the higher ed marketer podcast.

SPEAKER_03
Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02
Bart, do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share with us?

SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I just want to say thank you again, Joshua, for being here. And I really wanted to point out a few things that Joshua said that I think we're just so critical kind of the nuggets as we kind of walk away. You know, remember that the website is not, you know, this isn't your grandfather's website.

This is this is, you know, we have to think of it in 2022 2023. The idea that we're all more about content and more about marketing than anything else. You know, quit, you know, so many people still talk about HTML and talk about all this other things.

The website's a tool. There's technology out there that you should not have to worry about, you know, being a tool. It's, you know, the idea, I mean, Troy, you used the word, you know, the term webmaster earlier.

That's probably a term that can kind of be retired because I think it's really a marketing and content tool. And I think Joshua's done a great job of explaining that. I think another thing that Joshua said kind of in passing that I want to make sure everybody remembers.

And I think this is a tip that you could also go out and do this afternoon is figure out a way to organize and collect and manage your outcome stories. You know, you're going to have to work together with your with your alumni group with other people on campus, probably with your faculty, because really students connect back through their faculty to share their updates, to share what's going on in their life. And if you can have a way that faculty know that, hey, I just heard from, you know, Eric from the class of 1998, and he just updated me on what he's doing.

And it was a fascinating conversation. They need to know a place that they can either tell somebody or put that into a document or a form that you can then manage that and be able to go back and look at that and be able to sort that and organize that. So it could be as simple as just having a set of Google Docs in a folder, but some way that you can manage that, I think, is really important.

And then I really also like the fact that, you know, having some personalization. Troy and I have talked many times with different guests about the importance of personalization for our prospective students. And I really like the way that Joshua and the team at Rutgers has really looked at how to segment and personalize that experience for the different levels of the students and where they are in their journey.

I think that's important. And then I think the final things that I really heard a lot about was, you know, just that communication. You know, we talk about, you know, many times we're marketing and communications, but we fail to communicate with each other and with the rest of the campus.

And so I think it's important to, you know, hear what Joshua said about the ways that his team communicates with one another's then, you know, the walks, the meetings, the huddles, the way he communicates regularly with those outside of his particular team with other, you know, other areas of campus, other areas within the business school, as well as just, you know, with limited resources sometimes communicating and coming up with some brainwashing. You can often find ways to solve a problem that maybe you hadn't thought of because, I mean, I was talking to someone yesterday, the idea of, you know, preparing a bunch of printed materials going forward. Well, there are there are creative ways to do that with digital printing.

Now that you don't always have to think about, well, we're going to have to buy a whole skid now instead of and we've got to make a decision tomorrow. Now, there are ways to kind of think about that and be a little bit more creative in the way that you're approaching that. Problems and getting together with a lot of people can often, you know, find those solutions.

So thanks again, Joshua. This has been a wonderful conversation and welcome to have you kept back any time. Thank you.

Thank you both. The higher ed marketer podcast is sponsored by the Zeme app, enabling colleges and universities to engage with their future students at scale before they even learn how to use the Zeme app.

SPEAKER_02
The higher ed marketer podcast is sponsored by the Zeme app, enabling colleges and universities to engage with their future students at scale before they even apply and by the Kailer Solutions Group and Education Marketing and Branding Agency. And by Think Patented, a marketing execution printing and mailing provider of higher ed solutions. On behalf of Bart Kailer, I'm Troy Singer.

Thank you for joining us.

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