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The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZEMI app, enabling colleges and universities to engage interested students before they even apply.

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You're listening to The Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies, and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you.

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I'm here with Bart Kaler and today we talked to Dr. Lake Lambert from Hanover College and Dr. Lambert makes an excellent case for a liberal arts education and I think he wouldn't mind if other liberal art educators and marketers took some of the suggestions that we discuss and rise all boats.

What say you Bart? I agree with that. I think that Dr. Lambert does a great job

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of kind of outlining the way that they market the liberal arts at Hanover College and I think that he's very clear on that with just being able to articulate that well and give some examples of how to combine the statistics and the stories with everything, I think it reminds me a lot of the episode that we had with Scott Feller from Wabash College, his passion about the liberal arts as well and I know that a lot of schools that are listening to the podcast, I mean you might be a smaller private and liberal arts are a big part of your DNA and so I think that there's a lot of really good practical advice in this episode for you on how to market that. Here's our conversation

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with Dr. Lake Lambert. Dr. Lambert, before we get into the meat of our conversation, I'd like to know if you could share with our listeners, is there anything interesting or unique that you've

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learned recently? Yeah, I was at a meeting with some other college administrators and heard a really interesting presentation on the validity of the Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates of career growth in certain fields and what their track record is, which I found very interesting because so many of us in higher education rely on that data to make decisions about academic programs and career preparation programs and I didn't realize how shaky that data really was and it's made me

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think quite a bit about how much we rely on that data. Thank you. If you would please tell everyone about Hanover College and a little bit about yourself, how long you've been there, etc.

Hanover

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College is a small college located on the Ohio River in southern Indiana. If you were traveling by river, which happened when the college was founded in 1827, we were located halfway between Louisville Kentucky and Cincinnati, Ohio on the Ohio River and that's how early students arrived at Hanover was by riverboat. Today Hanover is a college of about 1100 students that includes traditional residential undergraduates but then also students in our new Doctor of Physical Therapy program.

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And I know Hanover is really known or I shouldn't say really known but one of the things it's known for

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it's this beautiful campus. It is. Our campus is 650 acres sitting on a bluff over the Ohio River. We occupy about 125 of those acres.

The rest of it is lush green space. We have over five miles of hiking trails on our campus and it's just a beautiful place to live and to study and it's a great place if you love the outdoors and you see that is an important part of your life and a great

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way for you to relax and study too. Would really recommend listeners to research and to go out and look at some of the images on your website or by googling Hanover. Bart? And I would even suggest

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too a little plug for the college tour because I know that you guys are featured on the college tour and one of our other guests on the episode Alex Boylan was on campus with you and I'm sure that they got some gorgeous shots. I saw one of the trailers the other day and so that would be another way for everybody to kind of start to really experience that. So I wanted to kind of get started on the first question here Dr.

Lambert and it kind of goes a little bit with what you started to say about what you learned about the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the idea that so much of career readiness and so many times colleges are so focused on which we focused on outcomes but sometimes we kind of lose sight of we are preparing students for careers that don't even exist yet sometimes. And one of the things that I know in my own background I went to a small private college that focused a lot on the liberal arts much like Hanover that there's a reality that the liberal arts has really evolved and it's becoming kind of a it's coming back into a very important part of education. Tell us a little bit about that and your thoughts on that.

Well certainly the

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liberal arts has evolved ever since their origins in the Greek and Roman times to now and even in American higher education that's evolved considerably too. When Hanover was founded the liberal arts meant that you read great books in Latin and in Greek and you read the Bible and Hebrew and the ancient languages and that's what an education was and that's really what an education looked like a Hanover for almost a hundred years from its founding. But then as times changed and we began to see the value of teaching about the sciences teaching in English and the the repertoire of what we consider to be an important part of the liberal arts has changed.

That's pretty fascinating

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Dr. Lambert and I really really like the history of how you just outlaid the liberal arts education but I think kind of getting back to kind of the the idea of how critical it is going into the 21st century or now that we're in the 21st century and we're not going into it but how critical it is for students to be able to have more of that well-rounded education. Why don't we talk a little bit about that in the application of what that means for career readiness.

Well at Hanover we

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really like to talk about combining a liberal arts education with career readiness that it's not a choice that a student has to make but instead they should see it as different parts of the same path a question of breadth and depth of what I also describe as long-term thinking and short-term thinking or an immediate impact in the short term when a student graduates. Yes absolutely you need to be career ready but to be able to continue to adjust and change as the world arounds you changes you need the long-term benefits that the liberal arts curriculum provides because that it's going to develop those great critical thinking skills the communication skills and expose you to a variety of subject areas that you're going to be able to turn to and build on

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for the rest of your life. That's great so I think that kind of what I'm hearing you say is that you know it's not an either or I mean I think sometimes people have always thought in the past at least you know 35 years ago 40 years ago when when I went to school it was kind of like well are you going to go this path or are you going to go this path and I think that even though I went one path it felt like it was the liberal arts felt a little bit more like it was bolted on rather than what I'm hearing you describe as integrated at Hennover College and so I think that's I think that even makes it more relevant is that what you're finding with your students. I think it's

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about relevancy and and it's also about the reality of how the world works. An employer today wants to know that you can make an immediate impact when you come into their organization they want to know that you have a certain set of skills and ways that you can add value when you arrive but then also too you need to know that over the course of a career and a lifetime that you can adapt to developing into new careers that don't even exist now so both of those are essential and the idea that you have to choose I would say that that type of dualistic thinking is exactly what a liberal arts education always challenges that it's not about you just don't choose either or you always have to think critically about how it's it can be both and I love that and I and I remember we

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had another guest on the episodes on the higher ed marketer podcast Mark McCrendle he's one of the leading researchers and and actually the person who coined the term generation alpha which is the next alpha that's coming he was on the podcast number of episodes again and he talked about the idea that it's being predicted based on the research that he and his firm are doing that generation alpha students and for everybody who doesn't know that is the generation after what we know is generation z and so those kids right now are seventh eighth grade like 12 years old they will be you know they'll be looking at colleges here in the next two or three years so we're going to make a quick pivot from generation z to talking a lot about generation alpha but in Mark's research he said that you know it's predicted that those kids will have 10 to 12 career changes throughout their lifetime now certainly they will have longer lives than we do but the idea that you know I remember my dad had one career you know and and you know a lot of the boomers have experienced that but when now we're getting ready to go into an alpha that it's going to have 10 to 12 career changes or at least changes in their job so that's you know all the more reason to me it seems like for the

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for the basis of a liberal arts education I agree completely it's it's only the world is only accelerating change is only accelerating and we have to be ready for that I think the challenge if you're a 17 year old is understanding what long-term thinking means versus short-term thinking I sometimes say that an 18 year old student who arrives at Hanover college a year is long term but and so trying to help under some answer to what the difference is between long term and short term is it is a relative and perhaps a generational thing too so we're always trying to educate not only our students but then also to educating their families and others who are engaged in the decision-making about about choosing a college paying for college all those uh all those folks are involved in that decision and they need to think carefully about those factors as well

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yeah what I'm hearing you say is that idea of you know looking at life focused rather than year to year um that's where at least for me I know with my liberal arts education you know I can I can manage people better I can understand things that are going on in the world better you know having access and have read some of those those great books and and having a little bit more well-rounded I can even tell now you know 30 years out of my college education how big a difference that makes even in my day-to-day you know what what I learned as a technique 30 years ago as a graphic design major and so the way that we did a technique back then has changed drastically with the computer age but what I learned in the way that I thought critically hasn't changed and I use that more

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every day critical thinking and communication are timeless the things that you communicate about and the things that that you think about may change but developing those school skills are essential and then I'll add to that then the the reality that for a lot of folks as they as they move up the ladder from a career perspective one of the key opportunities that they have to move up and to make more money for that matter is to lead and manage people and those types of skills that you develop in a liberal arts education empathy understanding of others the ability to navigate difference include from different cultures to different ideas and communicating those are all key to being a successful leader too and and that's that's only going to make someone's career

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better uh long term that's great can't agree more we talk a lot about it on the show schools are really struggling today to make the same ads spend work cpms are up 89 percent year-over-year on facebook and instagram our college clients are no longer looking for rented audiences they're looking for an own community where they can engage students even before they apply this is why zemi has become so crucial for our clients with over one million students close to 10 000 five-star ratings consistently ranked as one of the top social apps and recently one of apple's hot apps of the week there is simply isn't anything out there like it and we have seen it all zemi not only provides the best space for student engagement but the most unique and actionable data for their 160 college and university partners we know firsthand from our clients that zemi is a must-have strategy for gen z check them out now at colleges dot zemi dot com that's colleges dot z e m e e dot com and yes tell them barton troy sent you i believe we're all in agreement to what you say and how you describe especially the combination but let's talk about how to effectively market that to 17 and 18 year olds where in my opinion a lot of them are still thinking 100 percent job readiness

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well i think that if you don't address that then then you will have missed your audience and so you have to come out strong and and and make the case and as we do at handover that uh that you're going to be ready for work um or ready for what's next immediately after after handover college maybe that's advanced education but maybe that's a job and we're going to have all of that for you but it doesn't stop there it it has to be much more and it has to be not only this first job but it has to be that job beyond so i don't think that you can shy away from answering that immediate concern and and there's good reasons for families to have that immediate concern and for students some of that has to do simply with the cost of a higher education some of that has to do i think we have to be very honest it has to do with debt and wanting to know sort of how college debt and career go together and so unless we can answer that question then i think that we will lose students and then higher and then liberal arts education will be what it was often accused of being it only for the elite and uh and that's not what it is uh so so um so it always has to be this both and but i don't mind leading with career readiness uh now sometimes i will tell you that my liberal arts faculty aren't happy with that conversation that i'm that i'm willing to lead and talk about career readiness but i'm always having the conversation with them that um that wanting to make a living and to support yourself and your family there's nothing dishonorable in that it's there's nothing wrong with that but on the other hand we have to tell our students that that the only purpose in life is not to make a living there's much more to life than a job and and money so so those are always then the the cross points

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yeah i think that's so good and i i know that when uh we had peter ashley you know one of the one of the members there on your team at handover on the podcast last year and i know one of the things that he talked about was you know the way that you guys kind of manage that tension of being able to tell the stories and be able to utilize you know video and and very creative means of being able to tell those stories but also you know recognize that some of those stories are going to include the outcomes with career readiness some of them are going to include the value of what a you know what a private education and the and the value that is inherently there uh that sometimes we get lost in you know sticker price and and and all kinds of things so we really have to push that value statement and and those those value propositions and then sometimes really kind of being able to clearly articulate the distinctives and i know peter you know articulated that well and and talked a lot about what you all are doing there but i guess what i'm hearing you saying is that sometimes we've got to yoke those statistics those data that outcomes pull them together into these stories and then weave that together to really create the whole marketing picture rather than just doing an either or which gets back to what you know what the liberal arts is about is kind of looking at the holistic point of everything and and so maybe you can kind of speak to that a little bit about just even how you when you talk to parents are kind of doing that a little bit of that dance of you know hey i've got to talk about career readiness and i've got to talk about the statistics and the data but i've also got to pull in these stories of of of our alumni and how they're how they're

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living life yeah it's hard to get excited about statistics it it doesn't matter what the statistic is and it doesn't matter even if it's the if it's the statistic that you want or that your brain says is really good and it doesn't mean that those statistics don't matter but you have to be able to tell a story about a full and complete life that shapes around that statistics because statistics are snapshots they're they're singularly focused on a certain piece and you can you can put together a lot of them but but humans are holistic and so telling a story really helps us to see the holistic picture and and then yoking those statistics with stories and and or video especially now i think that's sort of the the way of the future to be able to tell what that looks like those are those are great things and that's one of the things that we're really pleased about the college tour being able to do for us is to is to make some of the of the outcomes of Hanover college that we will list in our on our website come alive and the stories of students and and the things that they're doing at Hanover and beyond yeah it's kind of hard to get

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emotional about statistics but stories can really stir our emotions and and stir us to action so

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that's a really good point earlier in the conversation you described helping generation z or future students understand the difference between a short-term play and a long-term play and would like to ask you to expand upon some of the ways that you get them thinking about the long term play as you're marketing to them or even when they're on campus well oftentimes you start

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not only with the student but also with their families who are visiting with them and and the we recognize and i think this is especially true in Gen Z that that these are family decisions and so i think talking to the families often the family the family and the parents could have a better sense of that long-term vision but i think helping students to understand that your academic major isn't your destiny being able to tell stories of alumni of the college had majors in certain areas but then ended up in careers that they that they would never have imagined we have really good statistical that too that tracks students and we can say what their their fields of endeavor after Hanover have been from that major and and and they're not there's not a perfect alignment and and anyone who's engaged in liberal arts education knows that just because you're an english major doesn't mean that your only option is is to be an english teacher an editor or or something like that it your options are almost endless and and trying to help folks understand that so that they again can see and think long term uh study and and be passionate about a certain thing that you that you want to study but don't think that that's going to limit your long term

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options i love that i love that because i i mean i've i've got a you know i've got you know two of my children have are you know in college or already graduated i've got two in high school and you know part of it you know i've got one at a at a large state institution you know working you know on his engineering degree i've got another one that went to a private liberal arts school that you know focused on he graduated with a journalism degree and i think exactly what you're saying there's there's that there's that benefit that i see that that added element of the liberal arts that that really kind of add and i know that you know a lot of state schools will talk about the general education elements that they're adding but there is something a little bit deeper that when you have the the um the room and the academic schedule and the room for some more of the deeper level liberal arts uh without having to get so focused on some of the tactics the tactics of of you know a craft or or a you know a skill you've got the room to do that so i think that's such a such a valuable thing to talk about that breadth and depth across the way well i i don't i think

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that's exactly right and uh and it's something that we do on a regular basis and and then it's something that we have to hear because it's not a a one-time sale the reality is is that students always have the opportunities that's sort of when retention is not just about keeping them it's about making the sale again year after year that they find value in staying and you're always making that case for for why this curriculum is valuable dr lambard as we close the episode would there be

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either a final thought that you would like to offer that we didn't cover or maybe a piece of advice that uh people within your role that you can offer them that they could implement soon after listening

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to the podcast the best marketing is to connect stories and statistics and the degree to which we can do that and what we say and how we communicate the message about the institution that's really where the wins are going to are going to be found for institutions in recruiting

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and in retention long term thank you doctor for those that would like to reach out to your contact you after they listen to the episode what would be the best way for them to do that lambard at handover dot edu thank you and i'd also like to put in a plug that you know following you on social media is a wonderful follow both you and handover college so we appreciate you putting out what you do bart do you have a final thought you'd like to share before we close the episode

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yeah i just want to highlight a couple things that dr lambard said that i thought were so so really good and i really like that last element that he talked about with you know if you have to you know leaving this afternoon and going out and and being able to start looking at how can i start combining the data in the stories how can i start making this data turn it into pull a story of somebody that's on campus that's actually living out the piece of data that you're trying to communicate and create emotion around that i think that's going to be one of the key elements and then i also really liked what what dr lambard talked about is that you know all of us when we talk about retention sometimes we get so excited about marketing at the beginning you know during the admissions funnel when they're that senior high school and then we're getting them to matriculate as freshmen in high school i loved what dr lambard said about you know we have to do the sale year after year and i think sometimes we miss that as marketers that we we think okay well i've done my part i've got them in the in the job and now it's student life's responsibility or now it's the professor's responsibility and faculty to kind of keep them around actually it's all of us and putting in marketing programs and and ways to kind of continue to sell them on that i think is so critical and i really appreciate dr lambard kind of pointing that out and then finally i just want to make sure that so many schools that are listening to this are smaller schools and they are going to be really trying to think about how do i differentiate myself how do i how do i you know i'm small i can't do this i don't have budgets those types of things i think a lot of what dr lambard has talked about and especially the smaller schools you're probably already doing a lot of liberal arts education lean into that use that as one of your distinctives use that as a way to articulate what is different about you than you know most small privates are competing against the community colleges and the state schools more than they are competing against the other schools and so how can you differentiate yourself and really help people to see the value in that so thanks again dr lambard for being on the show today it's been such a blessing and a great pleasure to have you on

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thank you both the higher ed marketer podcast is sponsored by caler solutions an education marketing and branding agency and by thing patented a marketing execution company combining direct mail and unique digital stacks for higher ed outreach success i'm troye singer on behalf of my co-host bar caler thank you for listening you've been listening to the higher ed marketer

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