SPEAKER_01
The Higher Ed Marketer podcast is sponsored by the ZME App, enabling colleges and universities to engage interested students before they even apply.

SPEAKER_02
You're listening to The Higher Ed Marketer, a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies, and so much more. If you are looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you.

Let's get into the show.

SPEAKER_01
Thank you for joining us on The Higher Ed Marketer podcast. I'm Troy Singer and with Bart Kaler, today we're talking to Cindy Farmer. She is with Arizona State University and the topic of our conversation with her is doing campus photography right.

She loves to talk about saving faces. She has an inspirational but very informative way of how to properly set up and maintain a campus photography program.

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I love this episode, Troy. It's so applicable. We all struggle with keeping track of our assets on campus with photography and videography.

Depending on the size of your campus, you might have a few hundred shots. You might have a few thousand, a couple, tens of thousands of shots. I think what they're doing at Arizona State University is very good.

It's very applicable. They've got some really good, just simple techniques that they're using to be able to keep track of everything. Something that I think that everybody can benefit from listening to because this can be dumbed down to any size institution.

You don't have to have thousands and thousands of dollars of software. This can be done on Google Drive and a few other things. I love her approach on everything.

She's very authentic and what they're doing at Arizona State is amazing and I'm so excited about this episode.

SPEAKER_01
Let's listen in on our conversation with Cindy Farmer. Although we're here to get much knowledge and wisdom from Cindy around images and videography and how to manage that at a large university, Cindy, we would like to ask you at first, if there's something that you have learned recently that you can share that's either surprised you or stuck out in any way.

SPEAKER_00
It's interesting that you asked that because I just learned this this week. I work for Arizona State University. We welcomed several thousand new international students this week to campus and we had our international undergraduate welcome on Monday morning.

Our team goes in before the event starts and we basically model release the first several rows of students and parents and make sure they're okay having their picture taken and before the event starts. We make it an experience. We don't just say, we're going to take your picture.

We explain who we are and what we're going to use it for. I met this just really sweet shy student from Jordan and his father was sitting next to him and they signed the releases. A couple minutes later, the father said, hey, can I ask you a question? What would you do if I said I didn't want my picture taken? I said, oh, we put our students first and their preference is first.

We want to respect their wishes. In a classroom, we would just avoid that student. In a big setting like this, we would just ask you to find a seat that's not up front.

He said, I've never seen anybody do this before. It's so awesome that you put the student and their wishes first. They spoke to me that our policies and processes are actually saying something to our students that we value them.

Hearing that from the father, how much that meant to him, just was so validating for us and our team.

SPEAKER_01
Well, thank you, Cindy. That's so on brand. I'm not sure if you planned that, but that's a wonderful foundation for our conversation today.

So, Cindy, if you'll let everyone know your role at ASU and a little bit about how you execute that role, 60 seconds or less.

SPEAKER_00
Sure. So my official title is Senior Director for Content and Creative. So if we were an agency world, I would be the creative director.

The teams that I get to empower and energize are the designers, the photographers, the videographers, and the writers. And we have a brilliant group of folks, and it's just so fun to create content and tell stories together.

SPEAKER_01
Thank you, Cindy. And the reason why we're talking today is to give your program, or hopefully you can share some of the secret sauce, how you manage the wonderful image and video program that you do and how you teach it to your colleagues at ASU. Now to give everyone a perspective, ASU is a very large university.

What's the yearly enrollment?

SPEAKER_00
Yes. Well, we have brand new numbers. This is our biggest enrollment yet.

We have 140,000 students altogether, but part of that is online. But those online learners are still very much enmeshed in our culture. But it's a lot of people we get to tell stories about.

SPEAKER_01
And today we're going to talk about saving faces and doing campus photography right. And it's based on a presentation that Cindy gives campus-wide, or at least to the relevant colleagues at ASU. Cindy, one of the first points that you present is entitled the power of face.

And of course, I think I know what that means, but if you could give me a little detail of what you present when you're talking about that.

SPEAKER_00
Sure. OK, so this is this is the part that I really love is when you talk about our faces, our brains are hardwired for faces. And we forget that we actually all have the first we all share our first language across the whole world.

And that's faces. Because from the moment we're born, we focus on faces for the identity information of our caretakers, but also social cues. So it's it's quite lovely that we all share that language.

And that's our first language is faces. And it's so important to our brains that we have a very specific part of our brain called the fusiform gyrus that is dedicated to rest recognizing and processing faces. And what neuroscience has found over the years is that we also have there's something called mirror neurons.

And with the functionality of functional MRIs, they've been able to measure this so that our brains are wired to experience emotions identical to the ones we're observing in others. So when we see somebody smile, that actually triggers joy in our own brains. So just knowing the neuroscience behind why faces are so important and capturing joy is so important is is a great place for us to start knowing that, you know, all of us, all of us know when a smile is fake, right? Because that is our first language.

We know when it's authentic, we know when it's fake. And we also experience joy when we see joy on others.

SPEAKER_03
I think that's so interesting. And I love what you've just said, because I mean, it's I have my own drum that I beat and one of them is about it's about those three things. It's one is like, I need to see people.

I mean, so many schools that I work with, it's like, oh, we have these photos on our website. And there's the library, but it's empty. There's the quad, but it's empty.

I mean, a lot of the schools I work with are smaller schools. And so they're, you know, they're out there during the summer taking the photos because it's a chance that they get to breathe. But I make a point that it's like no one can relate to an empty, you know, an empty photo without people.

They can't relate when they are not faces because to your point, it's our first language. And I love that. I love the fact that you are really kind of showing that now.

Now you've provided me some scientific data to back up my my claim, which is great. But I also talk a lot about the idea that emotion is really what we do. I mean, if you think about most of the time when we make a purchase and it's funny that the biggest purchase that someone might make is a higher education.

You know, that's that's going to be one of the biggest purchases they'll make in their life. And we buy based on emotion and then we we justify based on our facts and everything else. But I think that your point to recognizing that faces can really start to transmit that emotion and help people, you know, feel that they're a part of that.

They feel that emotion. I love that. And I think that's so important.

Is that what you're finding a lot when you when you see that? I mean, not only are you doing you're suggesting that to everybody, but as you start getting feedback on, you know, the the results of your marketing, obviously, ASU is doing an incredible job in the marketplace. But a lot of that has to be played out to that, correct?

SPEAKER_00
Yes, because we do. We have a very rigorous process of also testing our images every year. So we are continually validated that that's what resonates with our audience is emotion.

So it's not just the neuroscience. It's our our audiences are telling us the same thing.

SPEAKER_01
Smiles, I know that that has a major effect on the way we view and the way we interpret a picture.

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it's the classic thing. I've always heard three in a tree. I think there's actually a book written about that.

A higher agency did where it's like, you know, three students in a tree in the fall is kind of the classic thing. And that goes back to your authenticity, too. It's like, we've got to be authentic.

We've got to show emotion and we've got to show faces. And I think that's the way that we're going to connect with honestly anybody. But Generation Z, especially, I'm sure that you've found in your own marketing and your own research with your team and the results that you've seen, you know, they can they can spot something that's fake a mile away.

SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah. And they don't like it. And our testing validates that we had.

We tested some graduation images just a couple of years ago. And we had this really great studio shot and it was totally supposed they were throwing balloons. They look joyful, right? But then we tested that against the actual, you know, event photo where people are authentically celebrating together and hugging each other.

And you haven't told the models what to do. You're just capturing what's real. And the post photo just tanked.

Did not do well. But we thought we're like, oh, they're going to love this photo. It's fun.

And so testing is also very important. You know, we can't trust our own opinions. We need to we need to ask and listen.

SPEAKER_03
Well, let me ask you about that. Let's kind of take that to the next step then, because I mean, one of the things that you often present is the idea of experience design and the idea we just talked about authenticity. We talked about, you know, posed photos.

But I mean, probably the other opposite end of this experiencing is stock photos. And, you know, back in the day, you know, when I started my career, you know, you'd get the big thick books and you would pull up the stock photos. And, you know, it was going to cost you $2,500 or $3,000 to get a stock photo.

But today, I mean, we can go online and grab one. And unfortunately, I see the same kid and about 37 different ads for schools. And so I'm just curious, how do you guys kind of, you know, look at that, you know, as it relates to that authenticity and the use of stock photos or models versus that authenticity you just talked about?

SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I actually have a very relevant story related to that because I was working with one of the ASU lawyers from the general counsel office. And we were working on a project with, she wrote the language for our model releases. And we had this healthy debate and she was like, Cindy, in typical lawyer fashion, she was like, Cindy, you should never, ever use a photo of a real student, always just buy stock photos.

And I was like, wait, what? Like that is not the way we roll. That's not the story. We have to tell real stories.

But from a lawyer perspective, she wanted to keep the university safe. And from a storyteller perspective, I want to tell a real story. So we did, you know, find compromises.

We have a very rigorous process on how we collect the model releases, how we talk to students, how we recruit students. And we do, we're very intentional about, you know, we're all experienced designers. We're, let's be intentional about it for our students, for each other.

For the institution. So I can go into some of those details of that's helpful as far as kind of our process.

SPEAKER_03
I'd be great to hear some of that. Yes, please. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00
Yeah. So the number one thing to remember is that, you know, our students are sharing their identity with us. And we, we always want to be respectful for that with that.

And it's interesting. I didn't quite realize it until we were doing a photo shoot down on the downtown campus, and we had this brilliant student that we had photographed the previous year. And the photos turned out so well that our community used them a lot.

And when I saw him, I was like, hi, do you want to be in the photo shoot this year? We love the photos of you. And he was like, oh my gosh, no, I do not. I'm so tired of people telling me they've seen me on buses and brochures and magazines.

And so when I went back to the office, I, you know, kind of collected how much we used them. And just our office had, you know, reproduced 400,000 images of him on several different publications. And so I was like, oh, we do need to like, you know, ask students.

I continued on and asked a couple more students. And I was like, does this bother you that your friends, you know, are texting you and saying, hey, I see you on ASU stuff. And they're like, oh my gosh, I love it.

So, so it's helpful to know that students have different values, you know, as far as feeling, you know, they do want to be out there and represent the institution. And some are a little more hesitant and want to be a little more private. So I think that's important to remember and to ask.

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, that's great. And I think, I think what I also want to, I just want to pause here because I'm sure a lot of people are listening and they're like, okay, well, this is great. I don't have a staff of, you know, 20 photographers and videographers.

I don't have, you know, lawyers at my beck and call all this stuff. And so, but I want to kind of take this down so everybody who's listening, whether they're a tiny school of 100 students or a large state institution like yours, I want to put everything on the bottom shelf. You know, we're talking about a lot of things, but everything can be, you know, scaled down.

I mean, getting a, getting a release and doing some of the practices that you're talking about here, it just takes discipline. I mean, it doesn't take a lot of budget. It doesn't take any special things that ASU has that nobody else has.

It just takes a little bit of, you know, hustle to get that done. And I would also say, and I encourage people a lot of times that remember that the phone that you have in your pocket, the smartphone that you have is, it has more technology and is more better quality than what an average photographer studio and videography broadcast studio had 15 or 20 years ago. And so, you know, getting, getting a little, you know, tripod mount for your, for your iPhone or yours or your Galaxy or getting a laviar mic that plugs into that and just some decent lighting, just standing by some windows and things.

You can get some pretty good quality off of an iPhone and a smartphone. And so I just wanted to pause before we get too much further into the Cindy, because I mean, you've got some great ideas and there's a lot of ways that ASU is doing it, but I want people to realize don't zone out because it's like, well, I'm not ASU. No, you can do the same principles of what Cindy's talking about.

It's just going to be, it's going to look a little different, but it's the same principles. Would you agree with that, Cindy?

SPEAKER_00
Oh, absolutely. And I'm glad you made that point as far as bringing it down to the bottom shelf, because it's not only discipline, it honestly, it's the human connection, right? Really connecting with the students and having those conversations. One of the things we learned, and this is here's a little pro tip is having like hiring a student photographer is also really powerful.

And it was a lesson I learned when my husband and I have four daughters and when our two youngest were in the high school volleyball team, we volunteered to be the photographers for the team. And we'd always take photos of the game and after the game. And there was one night when we just handed the camera over to our youngest daughter and said, Hey, why don't you go take photos of your friends? And the photos that she got were so much better than the ones we did.

And we realized it was because she has, she was a peer and she had the relationship and she could, she made, they felt more natural being photographed by her than by, you know, parents. And I took that lesson that I learned and brought that to the workplace as far as we need to have, you know, student photographers and go out and photograph their peers so the peers feel more comfortable and, you know, can be more authentic and comfortable in front of the camera.

SPEAKER_03
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great tip. I mean, and we all have students, we all have student workers and, you know, and they, they are quite adept at that with the social media. I mean, they're used to using camera on the phone.

They're used to doing all of that. And so just with a little bit of direction and helping them understand what it is that you're looking for, most of them can do that pretty, pretty efficiently. That's a great tip.

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zimi.com. That's colleges.zee.me.com. And yes, tell them Barton Troy sent you. And like we have been introduced to a number of our guests, Alex at the college tour connected us with Cindy.

And I would love to hear a little bit about your experience with the college tour. And also, I know that you it's very important to you to give back to the students that participate in the photos that you take and taking the photos and that have participated on the college tour. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00
Sure, sure. So I was, I was asked to lead to be the university producer on the college tour project, which was an amazing experience. But as we were recruiting students and, you know, getting the students ready for that project, I realized like these students are telling some, some of them are telling really vulnerable stories about their life.

And they're, and it's going to be on Amazon Prime, you know, for years. What can we do to make this a really, you know, meaningful experience for them, a positive experience, but then also give back to them? And what I learned from that whole experience is, you know, the students want to connect with each other. So a lot of the, a lot of the communications I did with them was like, hey, we're, it's not like you're just going to be a piece of this.

It was, we're going to co-create something inspiring together. And they, the students latched onto that and love that. And then also connected with each other.

Several of them became very good friends. It felt like a little family and a lot of that had to do with the college tour folks, just also saying that we're a little family creating something together. So, you know, that's one example.

Another example is when we do our graduation video, right, for graduate, at graduation, we, we frame that with the families because we bring in the families and we create this lovely experience where the students and the families tell each other things that they might not have told each other if we didn't set that stage for them. So it like captures its really special moment that we created a moment that they might not have had where they can, you know, really share their gratitude for each other and their pride for each other. So creating experiences is one way we give back.

Sometimes we'll tell the students, hey, if you're in photos, we'll take some portraits of you as well and share those and you can use them on LinkedIn. That's another good way to like give back to your students. Giving them, like, especially if we use them on a cover of a big, like the view book, we send them, you know, copies so they can have them as well.

So just the thinking of all the little things you can do for your students, just to thank them because you're, you really are, they're sharing with us, right? They're sharing their time and their identity.

SPEAKER_03
That's great. That's great. And I know you've talked a little bit about, I mean, we talked about the power of face.

And so we went through that and we talked about now getting in through the experience and, and what that is with the experience of these students and how a lot of that with the college tour, you know, played out. And I love the point too. I just want to make a quick little point on that.

Talking to them about co-creating something, I think was brilliant because I think if you look at some of the stats, especially Generation Alpha and a lot of the Generation Z, when they're asked in elementary school, what do you want to be when you grow up? The number one answer now is a YouTube creator or a social media creator. And so the idea that we're playing into that idea that they all want to be creators. And this is a way to co-create, I think is a great way to approach, approach these students.

And so, so we talked about experience. We talked about the power of face. Let's talk a little bit about the process, the design of going through and actually doing the process that the, the, the nuts and bolts of how you all are using images of your students in the faculty.

SPEAKER_00
Before I start going into the nuts and bolts, I'll, I'll lead this with a, I'll ground it in a story that makes it very meaningful. Um, we, because sometimes as a team, you know, it is, it's, it's a bit rigorous and you have to be detailed about doing this. And then at times the team, and I've been doing this for 15 years.

So the team was like, why do we have to do this? Or, um, especially when we work with our, with our, uh, media relations, um, folks, because, uh, at least at ASU, our media relations photographers are amazing. And, but they're very much of the mentality of this is editorial. I don't need a model release.

Um, but we'd finally, we finally, um, made connections with them. We're like, but we want to use your photos too. They're so great.

You know, we'll support you and get in model releases if we can use your photos. Um, but there was this one, uh, there was a, you know, it was a couple of years ago now and, uh, ASU had some billboard, um, around the city that promoting different, uh, programs. And I was actually on a date with my husband one Friday night and I started getting all of these texts from our, um, chief brand officer saying, uh, Cindy, this, this billboard has hit social media.

The students is upset. I need a model release like right now. And I said, can, can I get it to you Monday? And they're like, no, I need it tonight.

So, um, I was like, oh my goodness, I'm going to have to drive. Um, I'm going to have to drive back into the office and dig through paper files. And when I got home, I looked on our server and we had just started a process where, um, we have the students sign the model release, but then we also have them hold it up and then we all take a picture with our cell phones of them holding the model release so we can, so we can attach their face to their name.

And then we put them on the server and we retitled the file, the name of the student. And so as soon as I got home, I looked on the server and I found it. I found the photo of the student holding up a model release and I sent it to the, uh, chief brand officer and I was like, okay, we're covered.

But what I did learn from that whole experience is like, we can do better. Even though we were covered legally and the students had signed off on that, we should have let them know we were going to put them on a billboard. So that was a learning moment for, for us as a community, as far as let's take it up a notch and make sure the students know when we're using them on a bus, on a billboard, something really high profile.

So the, how we do, so how we do it is when we go out, go out on campus, we, we talk to them and we, and it's important to tell them what the photo's going to be used for, that we're, you know, the recruitment team, we do the recruitment marketing, this might be on websites or in brochures. They sign them out of release and then we have them take a picture holding it. We file them physically and digitally.

And then rename it so that we could easily find their name. Very important for the privacy by design, which we can go into later. And then so it's a, it's a, it's a discipline you have to do, but it makes your life so much easier in the future if you need to find it.

If you need to pull a photo. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a great idea, whether it's a,

SPEAKER_03
whether it's your own personal server or whether it's a Google drive or box account or something, just being able to have, you know, model releases, you've got them in there by their name. And as well as that photo, I think is a brilliant move. And I love that idea.

I think it's a really very practical and pragmatic tip for everybody to kind of go through that and go from there. So I really like that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01
Along that thinking privacy and the whole GDPR was, it just took the industry by storm when it was first launched. And we'd like to know your approach of again, staying authentic and making sure that you're getting actual students, but also keeping the legality in mind. If you could kind of explain your approach to that.

Sure. Because privacy by design is a really important thing that was part of the GDPR,

SPEAKER_00
which I'm not sure if this community was freaked out as much as we all were by it. And that's the general data protection regulation. Where the UA, the UAE put some real muscle behind it.

Like if you violated it, it was going to be, it was going to cost a lot. So I think that's why it took us all by notice. But then as you, as you've seen, and I think they're just leading the way, right? For others are adopting that same, that same philosophy.

And it's the right thing to do. As far as if a student doesn't want to be in your library anymore, we should respect that and be able to take them out. But you have to have the processes in place to easily find them to be able to pull them.

Because part of the GDPR rules are it's not just their data, their personal data. It's also their images in your library. So we took that very serious and very serious approach to that.

In your library. So we took that very serious and did set up some process design so we can respond respectfully to our students if they want to be pulled out.

SPEAKER_03
And what are some of the practical ways that you're doing that? I mean, you're using metadata. Are you using, how are you doing that in your photo libraries?

SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it's so funny because the creative director in the enterprise brand management team and I, we joke all the time that metadata is our love language. Because it's so important for us to be able to not only make sure we know who the students are in the photo so we can contact them if we use them on something high profile. But also make sure we're using them in the right context.

Because, you know, from a graphic designers perspective, they're looking at the library, right? And they find a great photo and they're like, I want to use this photo of, let's say an engineering student, but in the wrong context. You know, if you use them in a different discipline, we don't know that the marketers don't know that, but that student knows that and is like, why are you presenting me in something that isn't relevant? Or the story I tell my team too, is like, it would be similar to if we used a photo of a student who was, you know, very passionately a vegan, if we used them on a poster for a barbecue, like that validates, I mean, that violates their values. I mean, that's really intense.

I don't know, we don't have that intense of metadata in there. But it's a good example of just making sure we're telling the right story and are respectful of

SPEAKER_01
our students' identities. Cindy, are there any other thoughts or ideas around a image or a campus photo program that we haven't covered that you feel we should put out there before winding up our episode? I think one of the most meaningful things for me is,

SPEAKER_00
I'm not sure if you're familiar with the designer Bruce Mao. If anybody needs a little inspiration, if anybody needs a little inspiration, just watch the Mao documentary on YouTube. I watched it for the third time last night with my husband, but he was a designer that was very influential in ASU's brand.

But he's the one who taught me 10 years ago that everything communicates, it's not just what we say, it's what we do. That communicates stronger than what we say. So as marketers, we're saying a lot, right? We're saying a lot about our institution, who we are, but we have to remember how we do it and what we do is even stronger because you're creating advocates among your students.

If we treat them with respect and kindness, you're building affinity with the student towards the institution. Because ASU, it's organic, it's just people. Every university is just a group of people, right? And it's how we treat each other,

SPEAKER_01
speaks volumes. Thank you very much, Cindy. Cindy, you've shared a lot with us.

And I know you do a lot of work around developing and spreading how to have a vibrant campus photo program. If there's someone that's listening and would like to get some information from you, what would be the best

SPEAKER_00
way for them to connect with you? Oh yeah, they can just find me on LinkedIn, send me a message on LinkedIn. And I love the community at whole and would help anybody if they have questions. I mean, we have such a sacred job, right? Like college students, this is their time in their life when they're figuring out who they are.

And we're here to help them find the right fit as far as which university to go to and then how to get involved. And that's just such a like thrilling job to have. And anytime we can help each other do it better, you know, I'm all in.

SPEAKER_01
Thank you. And that's Cindy with an I, farmer at Arizona State University. And when you go to her profile, you will see a big smile.

Thank you very much, Cindy, for being our guest today. Cindy, we always like to end our episode with this question. If there is a piece of advice that you could give a listener that they could implement soon after listening, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you know, the biggest thing I've learned from doing this work is just making the human connection. When you're out among the students really connect with them as you know, one human to another, create those experiences not only with the students, but also with your team. Like I know a lot of people don't have a big team, but many times we take, you know, we'll ask a writer to come out and do model releases with us.

And it's so energizing for them to be out among campus among the students as well. So just being wildly, wildly curious about people and asking a lot of questions, because people are just so interesting. Find joy, capture joy, ripple the joy that, you know, let's just be humans in caring for each other.

SPEAKER_01
Bart, what are your closing thoughts? Just a few thoughts. I think that Cindy kind of gave us

SPEAKER_03
such a really good pragmatic approach to a lot of really good things on this episode today. And so you might want to go back and re-listen to kind of some of those stats about the power of face and the idea of how important it is for us to actually show authenticity and emotion in the way that we communicate through our photography. Talked a lot about experience and making sure that not only are the prospective students experiencing your campus through the design that you're doing in the photography, but you're also doing something for your existing students who are serving as your models, serving as those faces of your institution and making sure that that's a real positive experience for them.

And then we also, you know, just talked about some pragmatic things about, you know, just how to organize your files, get those, get those in place so that you can, you know, quickly respond if somebody has an issue with the way that their, their photography and their faces being, their identity is being represented with your school. And then just, you know, the ideas of there's a lot more going on with privacy today that you need to be aware of. And so all of this that we've talked about, I will reiterate again that I think that even the smallest of the small schools can do some of this with discipline.

You can do some of this with the tools you already have in place. You know, if you don't have a model release, Google it. I mean, you'll find some, some place that will have a decent model release that you can modify for your own school and make it work.

But I think at the end of the day, we're not talking about necessarily how do we all, you know, you know, cover ourselves from a legal standpoint. We're talking about what is the right thing and the best thing to do on behalf of our school as it relates to our students and the, and the, and the community that we have. And so Cindy, thanks so much for being on the show today.

It's been a pleasure getting to know you and,

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and thanks for your wisdom. Thank you. The higher ed marketer podcast is sponsored by Kailer solutions and education marketing and branding agency.

And by think patented, a marketing execution company combining print and mail for higher ed outreach solutions. On behalf of Bart Kailer, I'm Troy Singer. Thank you for joining us.

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