SPEAKER_03
My biggest tip is that student success, achieving, seeing students achieve their goals with nine times out of ten is to get a better career. Isn't something that you can proxy to another department within your institution. You're listening to The Higher Ed Marketer,

SPEAKER_00
a podcast geared towards marketing professionals in higher education. This show will tackle all sorts of questions related to student recruitment, donor relations, marketing trends, new technologies, and so much more. If you're looking for conversations centered around where the industry is going, this podcast is for you.

Let's get into the show.

SPEAKER_02
Welcome to The Higher Ed Marketer podcast. I'm Troy Singer, here with Bart Koehler, every week we do our best to interview the higher ed marketers that we admire, that the whole higher ed marketer community can benefit from. Today we have the pleasure of interviewing Nate Simpson.

He's the Senior Program Officer for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and has a passionate role in making sure students are successful and working with institutions to make sure that their incoming students and all of their students are successful.

SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think that it's a great conversation and as you're listening to the, Nate is a very passionate guy and he has a lot to share. I think that as you start listening to it, start listening to it through the perspective as a higher ed marketer or maybe somebody in enrollment, how can you take what he's talking about with student success, which a lot of times, I think enrollment sees, oh, that's student life's issue or that's somebody else's issue because you know, once I hand them off during matriculation, then we're done. I think he makes a really good argument and really good persuasive points about the fact that everyone on campus and especially us as marketers and enrollment folks should be focused on the success of the students.

And so I think he really brings a lot of really good points, so be sure to listen to that.

SPEAKER_02
Absolutely, Bart. And I think unlike a lot of our other guests, you can utilize him and the foundation as a resource. So please keep that in mind and maybe ways that you can reach out to him or work with the foundation in the future.

Without further ado, let's bring in Nate. It is my pleasure to welcome Nate Simpson, Senior Program Officer for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to the higher ed marketer podcast. And Nate, before we get into our conversation, if you could give our listeners what the mission is of the Gates Foundation and your role within

SPEAKER_03
the foundation. Yeah, so I'm excited to be on the podcast and super glad that I was able to be a guest. And I'm excited that this is a chance to explore and talk more with your audience.

So yeah, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is a foundation that has multiple parts. It has areas that are focused on parts of the globe and other countries across the world. But then within the U.

S., we are very focused on supporting improvements around education. And so there are parts of that that goes from early learning all the way up to post-secondary.

And the team that I focus in our sit on is our post-secondary success team. And I also sit on a team that is focused on improving the connection between education and employment. And so I've been doing that for the past five years and the work that I do is very focused on, more or less in a very simple way, on the post-secondary team is to help institutions learn and discuss or figure out ways to see improvements around student success and make sure that race is in a predictor of completion at the same time.

So certainly interested as a foundation and seeing how that can be done. And we've seen work that it can be done and see how we can get about over 300 institutions to end partners who help the institutions to make these type of changes to do it at a much broader scale. And so that's what we do.

That's what I support as a team working on. And I'm super excited to talk more about what we've learned and just continue to just have this conversation. I'm a higher ed nerd.

I'm at heart. I've worked in higher ed for many, many years and I have seen, I wouldn't say I've seen everything, but I have seen and experienced it and super glad that I mean, what to bring into the foundation and to talk about it at a broader perspective as well. That's great.

Thank you,

SPEAKER_01
Nate. I appreciate that introduction. And I know that you and I have known each other for a few years and I know that, you know, a big part of that idea of success for students is like you said, access for them to higher education, regardless of any issues that might typically be in the way.

But then also making sure that the internal workings of the school are able to, you know, be fostered for that success. And I know that in our previous conversation, we talked a little bit about the idea of how the roles of vice president of enrollment have kind of, you know, evolved over the years, I should say. I mean, I was actually presenting to a board, a college board today on some of their marketing and, you know, trying to help them understand that, you know, historically marketing used to fall under advancement and now, you know, many times it's moved over to the enrollment side because of, you know, just the nature of the competition of, you know, bringing in students and things.

But I think you've seen over your career and even your time at the Gates Foundation of what, you know, what do you think this reimagining of the vice president of enrollment and sometimes enrollment and marketing, how does that kind of play into all of this from an access

SPEAKER_03
and success standpoint? Yeah, that's a good question, Bart. I mean, because from what I've seen working at the foundation and even my time in at an institution, what's really fascinating about your question is the fact that, yes, higher ed has had a history and I would even argue, post World War II, this focus on just making sure that folks have access. And what we've learned from the foundation recently in many institutions across the country is that, you know, access isn't enough and that's really about not only making it accessible, but then also when they get in, that you're helping them actually to succeed and achieve what they're hoping to accomplish.

And so we have certainly made a lot of effort around supporting movements and some call it completion agenda and stuff like that to get higher ed to meet its commitment to what it says that it does for its students. The point of all that though is like what that implies though is that institutions have to do things differently, right? Or make some modifications. And one of those is the reality that there's a lot of individuals and humans who work in an institution.

And even though you are, and even to your example, you could be working on marketing and not think that, you know, the student success or completion agenda has anything to do with your role. But what we've seen is that's just far from not being true. I mean, it's intricately connected.

And it's because of the fact that it does require an institution at the heart of what it does to redo everything. And I think even to your point about like telling a board that, you know, yes, you probably have a marketing responsibility, but that marketing, you know, capability or capacity is in the wrong space. And its intention should be connected to not only enrollment.

The other part about enrollment, I've seen it too within the enrollment space is that many VPs, I would argue, are realizing that their enrollment isn't just about getting them in, it's also getting them in and set up for success so that they can actually complete. And many institutions have even expanded the enrollment concept about just thinking about what the overall experience is going to be for the student. Once you get them in, then how do you make sure they stay in? And then how do you make sure that they continue to learn and they will eventually complete? Like that is, in my mind, some institutions have just moved in that direction.

And as a foundation, we're here to see not only what have they done, what did they do, but also how can we help others

SPEAKER_01
to do the same thing? I think that's great. I've seen a lot of schools that kind of, they miss the boat because one, they pass off a student way too early in the process to student life or to the registrar or whomever. And so that relationship that was built along the way, in the perspective of student journey, it gets just cut off.

And it's like all of a sudden, come move in weekend, they've really developed a great relationship with the folks in enrollment, but no longer do they have that relationship. And so I think your point to retention and success, I mean, kind of sometimes those words are put together. Sometimes there's distinct differences between them.

There is an ongoing, you know, ongoing, I hate to use the word marketing, but there is an ongoing communication and marketing. That's the responsibility of the schools to make sure that that student continues to understand the benefits, continues to understand the support, continues to understand that. I mean, it's one thing to just get them into the, into the relationship.

It's another one to keep it. And it's a little bit like, you know, so many times I tell my schools when I see big, you know, apply now buttons, you know, on the very first communication with a student, I'm like, okay, do you realize it were kind of like we're dating and on the first date, you're asking somebody to marry you, we've got to woo somebody and we've got to kind of earn that. And then, and then you can take that analogy even further and saying, okay, once they matriculate, okay, the wedding's over, well, you've got to continue into that relationship and continue to build that relationship just because you're married now, doesn't mean that, you know, everything's peachy cane going forward.

So we've got to kind of keep in mind that we have that constant woo to keep them there and keep them engaged and succeeding until they graduate. And even there, I would argue that as an alumni, you want to continue that going on to build that

SPEAKER_03
relationship. So yeah, no, I mean, the students vote with their feet, right? Like you have to sit back and wonder, like, why is it that, or I mean, we've, I've seen them seen with some institutions or that are making a lot of headway, when they get a chance to look at their data, they're asking themselves what's the type of questions of like, like, why aren't they coming back? What, but see, what I've seen in those, or heard about those sessions and read about and support is the fact that many of the times they, it's not just the IR person is looking at the data or the president or the chancellor, it's like, there's a team. And I would argue that team is including the BPA enrollment and marketing to discuss, you know, what is happening when it comes to, you know, we had a class that entered with, you know, 1000 students and then come, you know, spring or fall next year, we're down to 500.

Like everyone needs to start asking that question, not just one part of the institution, everybody needs to ask, or even offer, you know, if I am the VP of student services asking VP enrollment, like, what do I need to do to help make sure that when you bring in the students that your students, because we all, the student, you know, the students don't change, right? Like it doesn't, now there's a new student that is going from the VP of enrollment's role to the VP of student service. It's the same, it's the same students. So it's really critical that there's teams including the marketing and that capacity or capability with the institution looking at the data and understanding like, what is happening? Or why isn't it that we don't see and even making sure that it's disaggregated by race and socioeconomic status so you can understand like at the root, what is really going on? And I've seen a lot of articles, we've done research.

I think I've also realized it's just, I mean, sometimes as a high level administrator, you just have to genuinely care and be curious about wanting the students to be there and wanting to see them again. So and to see them succeed. Not to say a lot of folks are not interested in doing that, but you know, when you put that in front, it kind of comes off and you realize, I do want them to stay and you, you know, use that mindset, you start to redo a lot of stuff when it comes to and or you start having some more prioritized conversations about what is really important and what's not necessarily at the same level when it comes to other things.

SPEAKER_01
I think that's a great point. And I know, Troy, you've got a question, but just to kind of follow up on that for a moment, the idea that I see a lot of schools, you know, they're looking at the data and they're not starting with what you're saying, how can we make sure these students succeed? And so a lot of smaller private colleges, a lot of times struggle with this role is that they try to recruit everybody and every, you know, everyone, and then they realize that, okay, these students aren't necessarily mission fit, whether they're, you know, whether they're a type of school that maybe is a religious background school, or maybe they're a specialty type school where they offer certain types of programs. They bring in all these students for the sake of getting the numbers.

And rather than starting with how can we make sure that we recruit students who are going to succeed all the way through. And so I think that's a mission fit is such a huge part

SPEAKER_03
of that at the beginning. Yeah, I mean, like mission fit for me is always something that kind of like strikes a nerve because it's kind of like continues to perpetuate this belief that students are supposed to be college ready, instead of really that the colleges should be student ready. And so it's like, if you did all the work to make sure that they actually dig or recruited and enroll at your institution, you shouldn't do this like bait and switch moment where it's like, oh, we got you in and now, you know, good luck.

It's more about like you took the effort, you spent a lot of time and money in trying to figure out how that student would actually come and enroll. My assumption is you did all that because even then you wanted them to continue. And so maybe you should continue doing things to make sure that they do get the thing that you said that you wanted them to have when you were trying to get them to come to your institution.

I mean, that just means logical sense to me. I would even argue, well, and I know I might, you know, get tar and feather for this, but, you know, higher institutions aren't the only, you know, quote unquote types of organizations that provide services. And you look at other service providers, they take on that responsibility very seriously.

And, you know, as students are consumers, and they can vote with their feet in some ways, their money and go someplace who actually is going to provide them the service that they're

SPEAKER_02
looking for. Well, Nate, that kind of touches on a, maybe there should be a changing of perspective of we always think of higher ed saying, you should be grateful that we accepted you into our institution. Would you say that that should change? And it should be more of we are grateful that you accepted and we're going to do everything that we can to make sure that you succeed and

SPEAKER_03
that you feel welcomed. Yes, I think it is a like a massive shift in mindset. I mean, I don't get me wrong.

I'm not saying that higher education is the only part of the educational system in the United States that needs to adopt that way of thinking. That said, I think that higher education is necessarily becoming more aware that that way of thinking isn't just doesn't preclude them, right? It's become very obvious that we should have the same mindset. Also, I'm not saying that there are some folks who have worked in higher ed for a long time who have always had that mindset.

But what I think about what's interesting about that point is that, yes, there's definitely pockets of that that exists within institutions. But I think that those individuals, those pockets actually need to move towards the center of what institutions do. And I have, we have worked with institutions in many types from small liberal arts to large research one institutions.

And what we have seen through all of those types is you start seeing changes when even if you're part of a group of institution that has a mission to, you know, generate and deliver sound research for name it for the United States. When you start putting students at the center of the work, you can still achieve it. So like I've seen this thought process that is like student success and research one and research responsibilities are are are polar opposites.

And it's like, no, it's not. And many institutions have shown you if you put the student at the center, you can still achieve your research responsibility just as much, if not more in many ways. And then it's like the return on investment will start to yield itself, not only nationally, but intentionally.

And you can start, you know, predicting it on so many levels. I totally think that that mindset is is it's been or it's necessary for education in the US. It's been there for K-12.

You could talk to early learning. I just think post-secondary and higher institutions thought that that didn't apply to them. And some even argue, oh, I've always thought that way.

But, you know, I don't know if the data really proves that out. You could even look at some of the data from the National Student Clearinghouse with that's come out as result of COVID-19 demonstrating that many students who have graduated from the class of 2020 have delayed going into higher education in 2021. I mean, there's research out there showing that there's a desire to resolve it.

But you could argue, maybe some of that isn't necessarily a bad thing, because you can say, well, they need to make sure they're going to the place and to your point, Troy, that you're grateful and wanting them to come. And so, you know, just because you're there doesn't mean they're going to come. And maybe you should do a little effort to get them and make sure that you give them what they said that or give them the things that you said you're going to give them, which is success.

And I like to, I just want to add

SPEAKER_01
onto that a little bit, the fact that I think that's many times in the marketing, that's sorely missed, is that we want you to succeed here. You know, I mean, we talk a lot about the benefits, we talk a lot about selling our distinctive, the marketing. I mean, we recognize, especially for small privates, that, you know, people have a lot of choices.

And even for the public, I mean, everybody has a choice. We're trying to, you know, persuade them on why we are the best choice. But I think at the end of the day, especially Generation Z, many times they want to know that, hey, you've got your, we've got your back.

We're going to make sure that you succeed. You're not just going to be a number here. I mean, I hear a lot of small private liberal arts talking about, you know, we have professors who are, you know, mentors and things like that.

I think that marketing many times has to kind of start talking that way and start expressing that desire that we do want to see you succeed. We don't, you're not just a number, even though we know your name, we still want you to succeed. So I think that's a good point.

SPEAKER_03
I mean, my experience has been, and I graduated from Morehouse College, and it's an HBCU, all male, black male, and especially the only one in the country. And I vividly remember moments being on campus where if I did not go to class, like my, I would have to take a different route to go to, to certain spots, because I knew if I walked my normal way, I was going to go pass my instructor or professor's office. And she would, or not, it wasn't her office, it was her, where she parked.

And so if I walked in that direction, I knew she was going to see me or I might run into her. So I would just go the other way. The point of all this is the fact that, yes, I've seen it, it's real.

And I think even institutions who are really large have the same thing, they can do it. And the data shows that it can be done. There are many institutions we've seen.

We, we like have the Frontier Set as a initiative that is coming to a close, but we've worked with some top institutions who were able to show with big numbers of students who do exactly that. And it creates this experience that makes a difference for students to show up and for them to succeed and for them to actually achieve what they want. And many of them, I would argue, is because they want a better career, or I would say even the agency to choose what they want without having to be, and the agency comes to the ability to choose the options being available and not having them be very limited.

So in everything shows so far, the best way that's going to happen right now, especially if I would argue, if you're a minoritized population, your best bet is to have a post-secondary credential. And that's the only way you're going to get, you know, all the options made available to you. Nate, thank you very much

SPEAKER_02
for all of the information that you've shared today. On behalf of the mission of the Gates Foundation and a strong Morehouse man that has been in higher education for a while, is there one tip that you could give higher ed marketers that they could take away that would be beneficial to them?

SPEAKER_03
Yes, which is something that I have seen with this. My biggest tip is that student success, achieving, seeing students achieve their goals nine times out of ten, is to get a better career isn't something that you can proxy to another department within your institution. It's your responsibility just as anyone else's within the institution as well.

And you know, the moments where you're like that student success team or committee or whatever you want to call it, you may go, oh, that's all, you know, BP affairs. I don't have anything to do with that. I need to find, I need to make sure, you know, my, I improve my yields from last year.

Like I can't focus on that. Like you have got, like that has to stop. Like the Student Success Committee includes you and make sure you go to those meetings because the student that you are cohort that you brought in, it is a great opportunity for you to actually understand why your yields don't look the way they did.

And you could probably get some better insights and then not necessarily start changing how you begin to recruit or changing your recruiting strategy, but understand that you are demonstrating through your presence that it's important and that you're going to find better ways to make sure that the cohort has an experience and that you're not necessarily giving an experience. That's not something that you can actually return on. So go to those meetings, talk to them, be part of it and don't give it away.

I mean, and that's coming from a person that's been involved in practitioner. I worked at a community college. I know there's 18,000 things you're doing all at once.

You are, you are a hero with a cape on your back that folks don't

SPEAKER_02
even notice, but you got to do it. Nate, thank you so much for that. And we appreciate that small but powerful nugget and everything that you've shared.

My guess is there are a lot of other services and knowledge that someone could come to you for. What's the best way to reach you for

SPEAKER_03
those who would like to do so? Yeah, so my best recommendation is to always take a look at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation's website. The site has had an overhaul for anyone who has probably seen it in the past, but it's their sections now specific on our work in the US around education, specifically the post-secondary site. I totally recommend anybody check a look at that and to get any more information about what the foundation is working on.

We also have a post-secondary, I think on that same site. I know you can sign up for our post-secondary success newsletter. And so I totally recommend that and get more information and also recommend on the point about higher education, getting access to or being part of providing more value for students.

I totally recommend folks to look at our about the value commission work that we supported, which is post-secondaryvalue.org, where you can learn more about what the value commission, that group discovered about the value of higher education in the US. Super informational, super great, has a definition, has metrics.

And I think at some point there's going to be like a much better view of college scorecard that takes into account more data that the college scorecard from the department of Ed doesn't provide at this point. So totally recommend folks take a look at it when it comes available at that site. And me, you can find me on LinkedIn or I'm also on Twitter as well.

So super available to have those conversations as well.

SPEAKER_02
Thank you, Nate, for your time and all the information that you are providing to our community. Bart, do you have any parting words before we sign off for the episode?

SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I just wanted to kind of highlight a couple of things that I heard Nate talk about. And really as marketers, I think that we need to kind of lean into this is the idea of how do we make sure that we not only market to woo people in, but how do we also woo them to stay and woo them to succeed? And I think that Nate had some really good options there, I think as marketers, sometimes we find ourselves a little bit maybe off the beaten path with regular students, maybe there's an intern in the office, maybe there's not. But I think many times marketers and higher ed tends to kind of be a little bit more of, hey, we're in our little niche of the of the university and we're just kind of doing our thing.

I think Nate made some really good points of being an intentional marketer to start learning, start engaging with students, start engaging with those opportunities, whether it's the committee meetings or things like that. You know, interject yourself into that because as a marketer, you're going to learn more ways to communicate the benefits of your institution, the more that you are understanding how your institution is helping those students succeed. And so I'm reminded of a conversation we had with Mary Barr from Ball State University and how she's intentional to spend time with students on a regular basis.

And I remember a couple of our, you know, leaders in marketing that we've had on the podcast have talked about carving out time on a regular basis to just sit down with students with parents to just help understand what makes them tick, what, how they're succeeding and things like that. And so I really would encourage our marketers to just take into what Nate said, really spend some time engaging with students, helping them succeed. And, and that's really going to change the nature of what you're doing as a marketer.

Well said, Bart.

SPEAKER_02
Right. Thanks, Nate. Thank you both.

The higher ed marketer podcast is sponsored by Kailer Solutions and Education Marketing and Branding Agency and by ThinkPattended, a marketing execution, printing and mailing provider of higher ed solutions. On behalf of Bart Kailer, I'm Troy Singer,

SPEAKER_00
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