SPEAKER_02
So I sat down and thought about it and did a lot of reading. And I had this moment where I started not being able to sleep because I realized we're the nexus of the fastest pace of adoption of an enormous numbers of groundbreaking technology at the same time. So there's not early stage stuff that we hear about.
This is stuff actually happening right now that's going to go from 100 million people to 4 billion people in the next decade and a half. And that I was like, OK, what are these? And simply, obviously, cryptocurrency is one, blockchain technology, artificial intelligence, robotics, space, EV, Internet of Things, genetic sciences. None of these are new until you realize they are all Metcalfe's law models.
And when you add Metcalfe's law on top of Metcalfe's law, you get Reed's law, which is even more truly exponential. So then I realized, OK, humanity is going to go through the biggest change of technology and technological change because of exponentiality we've ever gone through. And it's already breaking the fabric of society.
SPEAKER_01
What's going on?
SPEAKER_02
It's been one of those days. And it's only just started.
SPEAKER_01
Oh, no. I hate it.
SPEAKER_02
I think I was at my desk at 5 AM this morning trying to clear. Why? What's going on? It's busy. Just busy.
Lots going on.
SPEAKER_01
Well, yeah, we're going to have to get into that. I'm excited to see you, man. I feel like it's been a long time since we've caught up.
So if this is even just an excuse to get to chat and see your face and see your lovely background, I will take that as a win. So great to have you on the show, man. And so much we were excited to dig into.
But very, very thankful for your time.
SPEAKER_02
No, I'm really excited. This is going to be fun.
SPEAKER_01
So just for the listeners, because I think this is a funny background, and Greg, I don't even know if you know this story. Raoul and I go, I'm going to say way back. It's not technically way back, but it feels like it's been ages and ages since this.
But I'm sitting in my house in California, stuck at home during lockdowns. This is like, call it July 2020. And I just started on Twitter, and I'm writing a few threads and doing some really finance explainer stuff.
And I had a few thousand followers, and I thought I was famous. I had, I don't know, 5,000 followers. And I really thought I was famous.
And someone likes my thing that has 150 or 200,000 followers. And I was like, holy shit, who is that? And I look, and it's like this guy, Raoul Paul. And I've been following him for a while and seeing he's putting up all this great finance content.
Real vision, I was a subscriber, and I had religiously read, especially during all of the turbulence of COVID, was just learning a lot from that environment and trading on some of it. Like, it was just really fun, and I was learning a ton. And out of the blue, Raoul reaches out to me.
We connect for a quick chat. And he tweets out something like that saw he'll bloom is putting out some of the best educational content on FinTwit. You should follow him.
And my Twitter, I think I went from 5,000 to 25,000 overnight from Raoul just recommending me. And I still, to this day, credit him with like, he was the jump-off man. Like, I needed that one kick.
Because then I feel like I've taken that and rode that wave for a while now. So thank you, sir, for all that you've done for my life.
SPEAKER_02
It's all about doing good for each other, right? We are a community, after all. If we treat each other well, life is much easier.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, well, you put Saho on the map.
SPEAKER_02
I'm sorry. That's all I can apologize to everybody.
SPEAKER_02
We have to get his drunken whiskey tweets on a Sunday and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01
That's true, man. There's probably some people, like the thread haters out there are probably pissed, man. They're going to be going after you now, Raoul.
You're going to have the anonymous.
SPEAKER_00
Before we get into anything, Saho, I saw your last thread. You got like, what, 70 plus thousand likes?
SPEAKER_01
I feel like 100, 100,000, man. I've never seen that before in my life.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. And I didn't even do a single Chrome extension or Excel tip in it, bro. What was it? Which one was it? Razors.
You responded it.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah. Why did it go so viral?
SPEAKER_01
I don't know, man. I mean, honestly, it's kind of funny, right? 75% of that was repurposed content that I'd written in the past. So it wasn't like it was brand new.
I don't know. Kind of a good hook. And sometimes things catch on.
I don't know. I noticed recently that there are just things that I see on Twitter that are way more viral than I've ever remembered things going. I saw someone that did an Excel thread recently that had like 300,000 likes.
And back in the day on Twitter, if you got like a few thousand likes on something, that was bananas. That was super viral. But now I think, I don't know whether the algorithms change or what's getting prioritized.
But man, it feels different.
SPEAKER_02
Well, I've never had 70,000 likes.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. You'll be all right. I'm not worried about you.
Can we just start? There's so much that I want to get into and a bunch of rabbit holes around the exponential age and your thesis there and Web 3, some of the cool new business stuff you're building there. But can we start with just like your path? Because you have a really interesting story coming from, not dissimilar to me, like a traditional finance background. You were at Goldman Sachs, which is like as traditional as traditional finance comes.
What led you to deciding to leave and sort of going down this path as an entrepreneur at the time that you did?
SPEAKER_02
So my first step of leaving Goldman was realizing I didn't want to be at Goldman. Is that it's not me. I loved Goldman Sachs for many things.
Probably the world's greatest network, to be truthful. And you're around some of the smartest people in the world. But you're confined.
You're confined in how you are, what you do, in a way that I just knew that wasn't me. I've always been quite individual. I like to do things differently.
And so I saw the recession coming in 2000 and I wanted to trade it. I've been lucky. I've been like being taught acting by Robert De Niro and Al Pacino and whatever, because I got to speak to the world's most famous hedge fund managers all day.
Paul Tudor Jones and Lewis Bacon and Stan Drucker-Miller. And yeah, you name it. So I thought, I want to give this a go.
And so I went to, luckily, one of my biggest clients, in fact, Hivemate, which was GLG Partners, which was a giant hedge fund firm in London and time ended up turning into man group. And I started a macro book there, and after about three months of doing well, three, six months doing well, they said, well, listen, why don't we start a macro fund? So I co-ran it with another guy called Bengal. And we started that fund and built that one up.
But over that period of time, it was much more entrepreneurial. GLG was a great place. I was losing my mojo with macro.
I didn't have a great year in my last year there. It wasn't disaster. It wasn't great.
But it's how the industry had changed. It had gone from being this gunslinger's high volatility, long-term conviction world to asset gathering, low volatility, lower returns. And that was the rise of the pension funds and insurance companies piling huge amounts of money in the space.
And they said, we don't want 15%, 20% volatility. And we're prepared to not have 30% plus returns in great years or more. What we actually want is to look more like a bond plus.
We want 6% volatility and we want 8% returns. And I'm like, this is not my game. I don't enjoy that.
And I could see that was the death of the industry because it was forcing people to be sure to determine the time horizons. So Matt Crow, Pulchner Jones told me a great thing was what makes a great investor in his mind is somebody whose idea horizon matches his trade time horizon. And a lot of people think, oh, the dollar's going up over the next six months or two years.
And they trade in and out of it. Or the opposite is true is they're short-term traders by nature because they have to be at this monthly P&L. And every position basically gets reset every month because your investors go, well, why do you scrub last month? They don't look at where you bought something and where you sold it in the industry.
And like VC, in the hedge fund industry, it's where you were marked last month. Yeah, it's marked a market. So it's crazy.
So it means that everybody's time horizon is this two week to two month time horizon. Yet your idea horizon, because it's macro, is in economic terms, which is 18 months or so. To go from peak economic cycle to trough recession, that's a two and a half year thing.
And it gets interesting to trading for macro for about an 18 month period. But you can't do it. So I'm like, this is useless.
So I kind of defiantly left and decided to opt out of the rat race and move to Spain because quality of life is something that always mattered to me a lot. Because what's the whole game?
SPEAKER_01
You were in London before?
SPEAKER_02
OK. And I thought, what's the whole game for if it's not for quality of life? I mean, money's just an output. But the real thing that you're actually working your balls off for is quality of life.
So I moved to Spain. And I realized that I had a lot of experience in macro versus most. And I had also learned how to write.
I was writing at Goldman. We had this group chat that was very early group chat days, like an AOL group chat thing, that I used to run for the whole firm and became very well known for it. So from the chairman down, everybody would read my stuff.
And then I wrote an article after a business trip to China when I was at the hedge fund called The Something Wrong in Paradise when I turned up to China to expect to see all the amazing stories I was reading and getting from analysts. And turned up and there was just empty buildings after empty buildings. You and Carson Block.
And I'm like, oh my god, this is a disaster. So I wrote it all up. And I think Stan Drucker Miller got seven copies.
And so I realized that if something like that could go viral, and I knew how these guys spoke, and I knew how they thought I should write research so I can stay in the market to myself and invest, but also have my hand. And so just by word of mouth, Global Micro Investor grew from Goldman Sachs and GLG backing me, saying, yeah, we'll definitely sign up to the world's most famous hedge fund managers, family offices, sovereign wealth funds, and everybody else. So that was the first stab at being entrepreneurial.
SPEAKER_01
And do you think, just to pause you there for a second, I mean, do you think that insight that you had a unique ability to sort of abstract all of the complexity around these things that were happening, was that just, was that sort of practice? Like was that Bruce Lee, like 10,000 practice kicks on a single kick? Or was it something you just had you feel like innately?
SPEAKER_02
I'm a very visual person. So I distill everything into imagery. So which is why Macro so appealed to me, because Macro is this massive 3D, always changing map of the world of all the asset classes, how they're interrelated, the economies, and the news flow.
And I found I can hold it in my head. And I can kind of spin it around and look at it and take different component parts aside. And therefore, you can simplify it if you can make a picture of it.
And so I just create that mental picture for others. Because most others struggle to see the connections, to see how this could be. People can think one step ahead, but people don't think two and three.
And two and three is where I'm pretty good at, which is longer term, knock on effects, how this is gonna play out. That doesn't mean they get all of them right, but I've been consistently pretty good at that over time. And I can explain it to people in a way that they understand it and can grasp it.
Whether they disagree or agree, I mean, again, that's the beautiful thing about Global Macro Investor. I've had people who barely ever agree with me, and they've been subscribers for 18 years.
SPEAKER_01
Do you think that the hedge fund industry, I mean, you mentioned a little bit of like the structural shift that you saw happening with people becoming asset aggregators rather than real investors or traders. And that coming from the pension funds or the insurance companies piling money and their preferences around volatility and time horizons, et cetera. Do you think that it is, I mean, super difficult to be truly long-term oriented as a hedge fund today as a result of that change? Like do you think that most of the hedge funds out there today are just focused on the really short term and they have to have really short idea horizons for that reason?
SPEAKER_02
I'll probably give you an exact number, zero. I lie, there's probably Crispinode, there's like two or three. Basically, that's why they turn into family offices.
Because you can't play that game. The best investors I ever saw, the best investor I ever saw bar none was Nick Raditi. He used to work for George Soros.
And he was the, you won't find much on the internet, I can see you through to go again. He is super secretive. And he came across my time horizon, but in 1991 he was the highest paid man in England and everyone was like, who the hell is this guy? And he lives above a shop in Hampstead High Street, which is a suburb of London and became legendary.
And I got to meet him, but he was legendary at Goldman and other investment banks for how he traded. I mean, he was a polymath, so he knew in depth about more things than you and I even know exist. And incredible.
And Nick was an older gentleman from Zimbabwe, or Rhodesia at the time. He didn't have a Bloomberg screen. He used to read the FT.
There'll be a grandfather clock ticking, ticking, ticking, when you go to his office. He would throw out analysts who turned up who weren't prepared, who didn't know their stuff in depth. But when he took risk, he took obscene risk, obscene long-term positions.
You know, if you read anything by Stan Drucker-Miller and George Soros, they're like, no, no, Nick's the guy. Because Nick could see the world in ways that others couldn't see and have the conviction to have enormous leverage. So Nick was the guy who would have the 300% up here, but Nick would be the guy who would have the 40% down here.
But he was astonishing. I'll never forget him calling up the futures guys at Goldman and said, he bought a ridiculous position in German-bund futures, super leveraged. And he called up like four weeks later after putting the trade on, he goes, those bund things I bought, where are they now? And the guy goes, well, Nick, let me just check.
Well, they've kind of gone quite a lot against you. He goes, oh, that's unfortunate. I didn't realize that.
I tell you what, let's just double up, shall we? He puts the phone down. I mean, astonishing. But the depth of his knowledge, I went into and talked, I launched a hedge fund, an agricultural hedge fund.
I went talking about agriculture. And Nick was so amazing. Is firstly, he's listening to my thesis and he goes, well, that's interesting.
Well, because that reminds of a paper that was sent to me, I think in 66. Let me just get it. I haven't seen it since then.
He remembers this paper. He like takes it out, does it off. It's somebody's PhD paper on crop yields.
I'm like, wow. And I said, how are you interested? He goes, I'm not really interested in your fund trail because I've got these positions on myself. He said, it's really interesting because I took my wife and we hired a plane and we flew across Ukraine and all of the Soviet bread basket.
Just to see what the fields look like, the wheat fields, where the borders lie. He said, I will then took my wife in a car and drove across the Midwest because I wanted to see what the cornfields were like and the wheat fields and how it felt and the sketch. I'm like, so he would do this kind of work.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, how are you going to compete against that guy? You can't. No chance. It actually lends into a conversation that Greg and I were having recently just around, like really like investor psychology and really like psychology of trading and investing.
And especially recently, I mean, Greg, it came up because one of our good, good friends who I won't name, who's very smart objectively, told us that he had sold all of his equities. Like a couple of weeks ago, like the market had like, it was literally the bottom. If you were to look at like the local bottom, he texted us on one day and was like, I just sold everything and kind of like played out his rationale, which like, you could convince yourself the logic was smart.
But when I was looking at it, I was like, that's super dumb. You know, like you're outsmarting yourself on something. So can you just talk a little bit about like what your observations have been from a career in this of investor psychology, where people screw up, you know, avoiding FOMO, how you've been handling the recent, you know, volatility in markets, et cetera.
SPEAKER_02
I wrote a whole piece on this. This is the best instruction I can give. Firstly, I advise everybody, if you're trying to trade longer term, which is where I think the alpha is, the real outperformance is cause everybody's time horizon is short, you should be long.
And I set up GMI to prove that. And I've proven it over 17 and a half years. I've got a registered, you know, public track record for GMI members over 17 years.
That's basically proven that exact point. So here's my example. Oh yeah, so write it down.
And every time you go and try and sell something or change your position, ask yourself, has something changed versus your thesis? So a lot of people, their thesis has changed, but hold on to the position cause they're emotionally attached. We've all done that. Or the other one is you get spooked out of something and you forget your thesis in the first place.
And then you're like, then it goes back and you're like, shit, I've missed it. So let me tell you my crypto investments, my Bitcoin investment story, cause it highlights it the best. Cause I just recently went through the maths of this and I kind of shocked myself.
So I first invested, I first heard about Bitcoin during the European crisis in 2012. I realized that this was solutions a lot of the global financial system. And I wrote the first macro strategy piece on Bitcoin, probably ever published in global macro investor in 2013.
And it was driven by a friend of mine, Emile Woods, who's is very well known in space and Chad Cascarello, who were global macro investor subscribers saying, listen, you need to look at Bitcoin. So I looked at it, they happened to have started an exchange called itbit, which is now Paxos. And I ended up buying Bitcoin.
And I stuck a decent size in because my analysis was it's at $200 now. If I back out the analysis versus the stock to flow of gold, this is worth a million dollars with the gold that these current prices, therefore it's underpriced. I hadn't figured out anything else about network effects, but I kind of understood that this was potentially important.
And I assumed that it would go to zero. So my downside was 200, my upside was 999,000, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then I said, I assumed that I am a total idiot, which I try and assume most of the time, and therefore I'm 90% wrong.
So if the upside is 100,000, and it's $200, it's the best risk reward any of us will ever come across in our entire lives, and maybe one of the best risk rewards of all time. So I took that bet, right? Macrothesis did the work, said this is probably a 10 year play, and I'm gonna hold it. So first thing that happens, I put the position on, it goes up 100%, I'm sorry, it goes up 100% a month and 500% in the next four months.
I'm like, holy shit. I don't sell any because I've got a long-term thesis and it's fresh in my mind. It then falls 85%, but luckily back to my entry level.
So it gets back to 200. I don't do anything because I had a long-term thesis. And then I kind of forgot about it.
And then 2017, it starts coming to life again, and it's starting to scream higher. And now it's at 2000 or 2200. And I'm like, okay, I'm up 10X, which is good.
My thesis obviously was a lot more, but I've forgotten that because now the forking wars had started. And I suddenly thought, is this existential? Is this the S-curve moment where it fails? So I sold it. And it went up another 10X to 20,000.
I didn't worry about that because I'd made 10X and it was okay, it was a good trade. And I was worried that it wasn't gonna be able to play out my thesis because of these forking wars. And then it fell 85%.
I wasn't in it. And eventually I got in in April 2020. And I can't remember my average was, I call it 6,800 or something.
And then I'm still long and then, you know, rotating to ETH and I did other stuff. But anyway, so great trade. The best trade of my life.
I went back and looked at, if I'd just kept my initial investment at 200 bucks, I would have done, I can't remember that I'm five times better. Even though the size that I added in March 2020 was massively larger than the first size I still didn't work. I'm like, huh.
And then I thought, okay, if I'd actually followed my thesis, which is when it gets very oversold, and it gets to that kind of logarithmic, the bottom, the two standard deviations oversold of a logarithmic channel or whatever, if I don't actually just doubled my position every time, but not doubled it, sorry, just added the same amount as my initial seed investment, I'd have done like 25X. I'm like, okay. So what I thought was a great trade was actually a terrible trade, because I didn't trade my plan and I didn't think about what I was trying to achieve.
So that's leading the question about, okay, the market sell off now. I'm immensely comfortable because I see the network adoption, I've got even more models to understand how this space works. I see how broad and deep the talent, the adoption, the kind of conversations that Greg and I have with people all the time, it's like seeing the future.
So therefore the volatility now, I've been adding as fast as I can, scraping the sofa for coins or anything to put more money in. What's the optical effect that's actually quite hard is once you've had a big gain, and even though it's come off a lot, it's still a reasonable amount of money, and you don't have that much capital available to double it up, and it doesn't feel like your position's getting much bigger, and I'm struggling with this right now because I'm increasing by 10% or 20% because I don't have the cash to do that. But if I just-
SPEAKER_01
It's the benefit of having income, by the way. Like you and I have talked about this, Raoul. It's like having income and having a source of income around this is a big driver of allowing, Greg, you and I have talked about this.
It's great because your position's gonna be down, but I can go dollar-cost average into things at lower prices because I have income every month. And if you don't, if you're just a trader, and that's what you're doing day to day, it gets really hard to double up.
SPEAKER_00
That's really- But what advice do you have for staying sober, basically? And what I mean by sober is-
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, because I say sober a lot, but-
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean. Not like getting, doing substances, but for example, when everything starts, when there's a drawdown, there's a massive drawdown, even if I have this thesis that, let's just say, a very strong thesis, it feels like it's a sunny day and it's starting to get rainy. And then if you think about it too much, I find it's easy to have narratives in your head, which is, you know what, this, open sea volume is down, maybe Ethereum isn't the play, maybe I shouldn't move it to here.
Like how do you maintain your-
SPEAKER_02
Because I've got a big picture framework that is robust and tested, and is deep, I've done a lot of work on it. So I feel comfortable with the probabilities. Now, I love markets like anybody else.
So I've got on my screen the real-time chart of ETH, daily, weekly, monthly, and hourly. I don't even trade ETH, I just buy it. But I like the market and I look at the price action, and what I do, what I did the whole period was just didn't look at my P&L.
So I have learned, and this is a new thing for me, how to disassociate myself with my P&L. Because if not, you're always thinking peak to draw down, or look how much it's worth now, as opposed to how far are we along in my thesis? Let the numbers take care of themselves over time. It's, I'm learning that because, you know, this is a hard one to learn on because the volatility is so high.
But I've done it simile. I mean, I had a very strong view in 2012 about the US dollar and the euro. I was living in euros, billing in euros.
Yeah, GMI was based in euros. I was living in Spain, and I thought, based on a bunch of work that I'd done, that the dollar was, the euro was gonna fall over a long period of time, and it was gonna fall to 85 cents, 82 cents, was my target and has been my target since then. So I took all of my savings, which was a reasonable amount at the time, and stuck it all into dollars.
Then to force myself not to trade it, I bought a couple of properties, one in Cayman and a small place in Miami, in dollars. So I couldn't therefore, and I was now in the trade properly, and I changed the billing of global macro investor in dollars. And that was a phenomenal bet because that was at 148 and a half in the euro.
Still hasn't got to my target, but it was there. You know, so I've done it once, but that was easier, this one, Bitcoin's harder. Otherwise, I don't tend to have run so many really long-term massively volatile positions.
My positions are normally six months to two years.
SPEAKER_00
Do you think being where you are, be it in the Caymans, being in Spain, basically not being in London and New York helps you?
SPEAKER_02
Massively. Everybody's got too much of an opinion. The only opinion you need to listen to is yours.
You just, you hear other people's opinions, you test your thesis, but so many people just flip-flop around because somebody who sounds smart came with a opposing thesis and it scares them or makes them bullish. We're all subjects there, we're all humans, but yeah, getting out of London and New York is immensely useful.
SPEAKER_01
That's a great point because I have often felt this, and you know, it's not as much a geography thing for me as it is like a circles of contact or friends thing where like, Greg, we have a group chat of a bunch of quote unquote smart, tech-oriented people who are all generally invested in crypto, tech growth stuff, et cetera. And the dumbest trades I have ever made, the dumbest investments I have ever made, objectively, are things that I ended up getting pressured into from that smart group chat.
SPEAKER_00
Because somebody says something. Collectively, we've lost millions. Collectively.
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, I mean, we've destroyed so much alpha in that group chat. It's sort of an ongoing joke in the group chat that one of the qualifications for being in it is that you have to destroy alpha. There was a time, I actually didn't get into this one, but there was like a whole long period in 2021 where everyone was like aping into Zillow.
And every time it was down 10%, someone would be like, oh man, this is the future of real estate, I'm doubling up. And then everyone would double up on it. And then it would go down another 20%.
And people are like, I mean, I think there are people in the group chat down 80% on Zillow stuff.
SPEAKER_02
And now here's the worst thing, maybe their thesis is right. Yeah. But most people will have got out of the trade or got bored because their 100 grand is now worth 10 grand. They're like, oh fuck that, I don't care anymore.
SPEAKER_01
And it's so hard to trade your way out of that, man. I mean, really, really hard if you're gonna like, then sell it and try to work your way back. It's just not gonna happen.
But it is, it's a great point. I'm like, I think of it of, I call it like the tragedy of expertise or something like that where you almost outsmart yourself. Like the, I actually looked recently at my portfolio and like my five year returns and the, the like smart investments I made, like things where I thought I had edge or some sort of insight that was gonna make it, you know, beat the market have underperformed the dumb dollar cost averaging I did into S&P 500, Bitcoin and ETH.
Like dramatically underperformed all the smart things I did. It was like me buying every Monday into the like three, you know, a couple of things that I just know are gonna go up over the longterm, dramatically outperformed. And that is just like, if that's not a sign to me, then I need to stop doing the smart things and just like be dumb and just enjoy it and embrace it.
I don't know what else is.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. You know, all you need, there's a hack to all of this. Is all you need is a secular trend.
Try not to be the smartest person in the room. Try to be dumb. Where is the obvious direction over time? Cause the obvious direction over time is where you'll make the most money.
You can get smarter around the bets there, but the obvious direction of the adoption of crypto assets is that it's going higher. Now that adoption rate slows and speeds up over various periods of time. So you've got a tailwind, which is amazing, right? Why does the S&P 500 outperform value and stock picking? Well, because 86 million millennials, a dollar cost averaging into a 401K.
So you don't need to start. If you look at the global economy, which is the most obvious global economy in the world that you want to be long of for the next 15 years, 20 years, it is without question India. Why? Cause they got 1.
3 billion people of an average age of 28. You haven't even hit the demographic sweet spot, which is that 30 to 50 range, right? So all of these things are around everywhere. I mean, you know, the bond market has been an amazing trade for me, our entire career, cause it's been bloody obvious.
It's in one trend. And I still don't think it's broken. I know everyone's arguing, but I've argued this for the last 12, 15 years when people say, yeah, it's going to break and everything's changed.
I don't think it has because of debt and demographics. These are secular trends. Trade, the second trend is much easier than something else.
It's like, you know, is Tesla the best car company in the world? It doesn't really matter, but EV is where money is corralling and the rate of innovation and adoption of what he's doing is still high. So, you know, ESG, that's going to be a mega trend. Don't care whether anybody agrees in the trend and the mandating of it, but everybody's mandated to do it in Europe.
So all of the money goes into ESG. So there's another tell one for you. And that's going to go on until we get changed the energy equation and the war with Russia accelerates it.
SPEAKER_00
I think it's trade, it's trade secular trends and it's also built in secular trends. Correct. So, for example, I'm happy you brought up India.
I heard recently from Boloji actually on the Tim Ferriss podcast that he said that the majority of-
SPEAKER_02
The English speaking internet will be Indian. Exactly. That is on my Evernote in front of me because we've just started Real Vision India and it just struck me as something immensely powerful based exactly on the same demographic consequence of having what 300 million people who are English speaking of the middle classes in India.
SPEAKER_00
That changes the fabric of the internet fundamentally. And once I haven't been able to sleep since I've heard that basically because I was like, this changes everything. I don't think enough people realize it.
SPEAKER_02
And there's- It's the same to me, Greg. It struck me. I'm not, you know, as you know, I'm half Indian.
I mean, I'm a huge India bull and I had not got that simple. So this is somebody who's clarified a whole complexity. I could speak for hours about India and what they're doing and everything else.
He's distilled it into one point that is so prescient that it kept you up at night.
SPEAKER_01
Say it one more time just for clarity.
SPEAKER_02
Soon, the majority of the English speaking internet will be Indian. Yeah. So, and he explains in a little bit after that is that the conversations you have online, the highest probability is that they will be Indians. They will not be Americans.
They'll not be English. They'll not be Europeans. They'll be Indians.
And I'm like, well, what he's saying is the future of the internet is Indian. And that's the Indian diaspora both at home. So, Sahil, you're part of that as well.
The Indian diaspora at home and abroad. And with India, I think we can include Pakistan and Bangladesh, the Indian subcontinent. So, I mean, the diaspora in the US is taking over the bloody world.
And everyone's like, wow, why is there so many Indians? Well, firstly, everybody were hard at real visions of bloody Indian now. It becomes a joke. Why? Because there's enormous numbers of Indians and dwarfs everybody else.
SPEAKER_01
So, this all reminds me, when you talk about secular trends, you talk about these big picture things. I think a lot about Josh Wolff, who I think is a mutual friend of ours, Raoul as well, and his whole thesis around directional arrows of progress. And that's always really resonated with me, is you don't need to pick the exact thing, but just figure out what the directional arrow of progress is and trade and best build in that.
You wrote a piece recently for GMI about what you call the exponential. What you call the exponential age. Can you just talk about that? Like, what does that mean to you? What are those big secular trends that you're seeing that people should be paying attention to?
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, after writing it, I realized that it wasn't quite so revolutionary because obviously people like Kathy Wood have been doing it and people like the guys at Scottish Mortgage Trust that most people that know of, that probably the best tech managers in the world have been doing. And basically, I just stepped back and I was like, okay, I'd seen that if I divided various assets by the central bank balance sheet, over the period we're having big monetary printing in 2021 or 2020, I realized that there's only two things that outperform the Fed balance sheet over the last, since 2008. Only two asset classes.
One was technology stocks and the other was crypto. And that stopped me on my tracks. I'm like, why technology stocks? And then I realized that these were also network adoption models.
So that got me thinking about, okay, here's a secular trend. I'm missing, right? Because I was one of those people who think that all VCs are idiots. This is a stupid overhyped ridiculous thing.
And obviously clearly wrong, but macro frameworks don't work very well because they tend to be mean reverting often. Some people got it. Stan Drucker-Miller got it a while ago and a few people did.
So I sat down and thought about it and did a lot of reading. And I had this moment where I started not being able to sleep because I realized where the nexus of the fastest pace of adoption of an enormous numbers of groundbreaking technologies at the same time. So there's not early stage stuff that we hear about.
This is stuff actually happening right now that's gonna go from 100 million people to four billion people in the next decade and a half. And that I was like, okay, what are these? And simply obviously cryptocurrencies one, blockchain technology, artificial intelligence, robotics, space, EV, internet of things, genetic sciences. You know, none of these are new until you realize they are all Metcalfe's law models.
And when you add Metcalfe's law on top of Metcalfe's law, you get Reed's law, which is even more truly exponential. So then I realized, okay, humanity is going to go through the biggest change of technology and technological change because of exponentiality we've ever gone through and it's already breaking the fabric of society. Right, that's clear.
SPEAKER_01
And just to make sure every listener understands the point you just made there, Metcalfe's law is basically like the underpinning of network effects, which just says, you know, a network's value is, I guess what it technically says is that a network's value is equal to the square of the number of users in the network, but more simply, more users equal more value per user.
SPEAKER_02
More users are more interconnection between the users, right? Because more users is not a network, it's a potential network. Yeah. Once you start building on top of the network, you know, what is the value that the mobile phone networks have actually created if you think about that? Not making phone calls, but what got built on top of it? You know, this kind of stuff, right? And when you, you know, and mobile phones and that technology has been a Reed's law example because you have the mobile phone technology, then the computing technology goes on top, the software technology goes on top of that. And before you know it, the whole thing goes like ridiculous.
So we're about to go through the largest change humanity's ever gone through. We're not dealing with a change already. You can see it all over Twitter.
There's people so distrusting of change and fear of change and, you know, moving away from good old, my Mustang and moving to a Tesla. That just seems like it's a political opinion now. You know, the whole thing is, is all about the fear of change.
So I thought about this and so I can say, I know it's tearing society apart and it will continue to do so because humans don't deal with change at this speed. That's all most species don't. So I thought, what do you do about that? How do you change the mindset of this? The obvious thing is to embrace it because then it goes from being something you fear to something you'd be excited about.
And if you understand network adoption models, it means that it should be incredibly lucrative to embrace it financially by investing in it. So I started building a broad basket of stuff that basically captures the directionality of these mega trends, you know, gaming, metaverse. They're all part of the same ludicrous change that none of us, if we come back to this conversation in 15 years time, well, A, we won't be doing it over Zoom.
You know, I mean, I can't even get my head around the change. It's much like none of us got the head around the changes when we first saw the internet. And like, yeah, once you first saw something in about 96, no way we thought we'd be doing this 20 years later.
SPEAKER_00
What do you think we're, could you paint a vision of what internet metaverse might look like in 15 years?
SPEAKER_02
Look, everything is converging. It is converging on the singularity. Once you see all of this stuff, there is no other outcome.
Now, whether that's man enhances machine or machine enhances man is going to be the big debate of 20, 30 years time. But everything is going to be digitized. We're seeing it.
It's the mega trend, right? If you step back, what is the mega trend? Everything. And I explain this to people that don't get it, but electricity is about to be digitized. That is what this whole revolution is about.
The whole ESG revolution is going from using these physical fossil fuels to using atoms or energy that exists and basically digitizing it. So once you do that, the cost of anything that gets digitized goes to zero. It's one of the most powerful forces the world has ever seen.
So what does the world look like with near free electricity? Oh, okay. That means something different. That we're not constrained by cost of energy.
So what possibilities does that allow for computing power? What possibilities does it allow for travel? What possibilities allow for technology? I have no idea, but it's coming. Whether that's 15 years time or 30 years time, it is definitely coming. So all I know that we will be living in a more and more digital world, and the metaverse is just the expression of that.
Like this, I always explain on these calls, this is a metaverse experience, right? These are digital renditions of ourselves with digital renditions of our voices. Yeah, all of this stuff, this is basically the start of what a metaverse is. And it'll all come together.
But also on the flip side means that nature probably trades at a premium. If you're living all of your life, you know how difficult it's been for us all. How incredibly productive and useful it's been to be able to operate on Zoom.
And how it gives you a headache, you're exhausted by the end of the day and all of that stuff. Cause you're not interacting with nature, the outside people and stuff like that. So I think nature probably trades at a premium, which is an interesting concept that I've been kind of getting through my mind with this.
So the answer is I don't know what the world's gonna look like, but I know that all of these things, they're all going to one point. Like I used to say that crypto macro were these two tracks that we're gonna meet at the next recession, then it happened. These tracks obviously meet at the singularity, which is a horrifying, terrifying concept.
And this is gonna sound batshit crazy, but I think you are the right people to float it with. Is, and I'm not a Elon Musk fan boy, although I'm incredibly amazed at what he's done. He's going to Mars, if he can.
And everything he's doing is for that. If you step back, I've not even written about this shit. If you step back and look at all of the things he's doing, they're all for the same thing.
I actually think the boring company is not about digging tunnels under Los Angeles. I don't think it gives a shit. I think it's because the only way of inhabiting Mars is underground.
SPEAKER_00
This is why we bring you onto the pod.
SPEAKER_02
I don't think that, you know, SpaceX, Doge, right? People don't understand his fascination with Doge. If you don't understand what he's doing, and again, this is not me going on, Elon Musk, the greatest man in the world. He tells you this, but nobody listens.
What is Doge? Doge is likely to be his currency. What does that mean? It's still decentralized in some method, not hugely so, but yes, he's a large stakeholder in it, but I'm guessing he'll use it as streaming payments for his cars. Why would he not? And I interviewed somebody from NASA, a guy called Leon Alkalite, incredible guy.
He's now got a VC in space stuff. I got him on real version. He blew me apart.
I had no idea how advanced space was. He's like, oh yeah, well, we're setting up server farms in space because we don't want to beam down the, because it's too expensive to send down the data and back up again. And we need a streaming payment system in space.
Now there's no sovereignty in space. Get your heads around that. There is no sovereignty.
So you can have your own system of currency in space. So then if you think about, okay, why the robots that he's building? Well, somebody needs to go and do the work in Mars to build. Why even, and this is maybe wildly off truck, but look at the cyber truck.
If you can generate solar power from Mars, which I believe you can, why would that cyber truck not be a perfect vehicle for moving around Mars? Now I don't know about the gravitational components, but I think it's decent enough. But I don't know. But there's a lot of these things that I've looked at.
And then if you've seen the whatever the mind thing, that's singularity stuff. The idea is maybe as humans, you can't colonize Mars on your own and you have to deal with the robots. But even if I'm wrong on this, the point being that you made before Sahil, I'm not directionally wrong.
Ask Josh Wolff, ask the people at NASA, ask anybody in the space industry, I'm not directionally wrong.
SPEAKER_02
And it's coming faster than anybody thinks.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it's one of those things, I forget, Dornbush's law, which is like, it takes longer than you ever expect, but then it happens faster than you ever thought it could have happened once it starts. And I feel like we're at the point now where it has started.
SPEAKER_02
So here's the thing I didn't know. Again, every once you go to that real vision interview, I think it's on my exponential age interview series with a guy called Leon Alkalai. It will completely blow your mind.
So he's like, well, do you understand that we're all fighting over who's gonna get the dark side of the moon? And we're worried that the Chinese have got there. But why do I care about the dark side of the moon? He goes, oh, you don't get it, do you? I said, no. He said, the gravitational pull of Earth is massively reduced so we can launch rocket ships further into space.
I'm like, oh. And he goes, oh, we're also already sending up refuelling stations into outer space so we can send rockets further. I'm like, really? He's like, oh yeah, yeah.
He goes, I've got an app that I've invested in which is for a million bucks, you can send a satellite up yourself from a phone app for like universities or anybody. And he says, and the costs are gonna collapse, it'll be 10,000 bucks for you to send your own satellite up. They're 10 square centimeters.
I'm like, really? And he's like, oh, also, you know, there is a race to build a base station on the moon. I'm like, why doesn't it be one of the moon? It's uninhabitable. He goes, no, it's because we can put 3D printing on the moon to print rocket ship parts.
And again, we lower the gravitational pull, it's much more energy efficient. I'm like, oh, wow, okay. I said, how far are we away from having this? He goes, oh, probably next 10 years.
We'll have a base on the moon. And it'll probably a private sector base. He said, we can then-
SPEAKER_01
It's like Artemis.
SPEAKER_02
We can then mine asteroids. And we'll be, you know, we're already looking at doing that. And we're looking at mine.
I'm like, you know, we are so far behind in our narratives that we're arguing whether, you know, EV should be adopted. Meanwhile, this shit's going on. It's, this is how fast it's happening.
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it goes to, you said this earlier, Al, is, you know, like when the constraints change or dramatically reduced, it unlocks a massive field of potential. And that's sort of what you're talking about with space, which is like, oh my God, there's this entirely different set of constraints in space. And if you can all of a sudden be in that environment, lower gravitational pull, whatever it might be, what does that enable from a manufacturing standpoint, from a, you know, cost reduction standpoint? Like all of the things that that all of a sudden unlocks.
SPEAKER_02
What does it also mean about sovereignty? Again, people haven't got the heads around this. So let's say Elon Musk had bought Twitter and that the servers were put in space. There was no census by any government.
Cannot be prosecuted because it doesn't exist as a company. You know, and again, whether that's legally doable or not, it's possible. The point being is what's gonna come from space is very different than what comes from these confines of our nation states that we live in, which kind of plays in a bit to the Bellagy thesis about the network, the network state, which somehow I've been speaking about for six, seven years, that we're going to digital sovereign states and we'll live in multiple ones.
I think Bellagy is wrong that we will leave, we necessarily leave the state we live in. I think we live in multiple states. We already do, right? We live in FinTwit and Greg, you live in Florida until you live outside New York and I live in the Cayman Islands, but we live in a community together, which is FinTwit and CryptoTwit and stuff like that.
And it can be very deep and it can be very broad. We've all met on there. And yet we got to know each other and it's cool.
So anyway, space changes the, again, it's space changes the possible in ways that we don't yet understand.
SPEAKER_01
It's a lot to get people's heads around, right? With all of us. It's a lot to get your head around and it's completely insane when you think about, I think it was Tim Urban had a tweet recently saying, you know, there basically been three or four, kind of like giant leaps as a planet. And one was like, you know, the first single cell organism, the next one was like, you know, the single cell, the multi-cell organism jump, then the next one was like, you know, ocean to land or something like that.
And the next big giant leap is from single planet to multi-planetary species. And the fact that we might be alive, like the chances that we are alive during that, one of the four or five giant leaps as a planet is pretty remarkable just on a cosmic timescale. And like something to feel really amazed by, I think.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and, you know, Elon Musk would say, it's because we need a plan B, essentially for humanity on earth, because we either destroy it or we destroy ourselves. I don't think any of us really want to live on Mars. You know, living underground or however it is, it's not a great environment.
But as you say, it's just like a virus. You know, humans were all the same, right? We're biological creatures. We're like a virus and what we try and do is survive and pre-create.
And if the conditions are not good for us in one place to do it, we'll find conditions for other places, which is the history of humanity itself and the history of all biology.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it's what, it's also the challenge of our lifespans. It's very easy when you have your own survival mechanism to survive yourself, but when you're talking about journeying out into space on time horizons that are gonna be, you know, maybe you go do something that your great, great, great, great grandchildren will benefit from, it becomes a much more challenging calculus, I think. I mean, maybe part of the whole singularity and like digitizing our bodies is that our lifespans will be increased and it won't have to be altruistic to go and venture and do those things.
SPEAKER_02
No, that's right. Humans struggle with altruism generally because it's a matter of self survival. But overall humans, again, I used to be more cynical of humans, but I think I believe in that helical structure, which is yes, we are cyclical, yes, we make mistakes, yes, incrementally things change.
SPEAKER_01
So before we wrap up, I wanna get the download on what you guys are working on in Web 3 and this new business venture that you've recently talked about and written about, that was kind of actually the impetus for me reaching out saying, hey, we should come on and chat. We've gotten into a super fascinating discussion on a bunch of different things, but I do wanna make sure we chat about this. So I know you guys are also collaborating in some way around it.
What is the big opportunity here within Web 3 that you feel like you've identified and you wanna go build?
SPEAKER_02
So I've, this is the biggest bet I've ever taken in my life, this whole Web 3 bet. And to me, again, when I visualize it, I see it's pretty clear that all business models go that way. So we're pivoting real vision around Web 3.
It kind of makes total sense. We've got amazing community to have utility token NFTs, to have all sorts of Web 3 interactivity and all sorts of stuff. Great, that's happening.
But the other two bets that I've got is, A, the entire financial system is going to pile capital into this space over time because of the supermassive black hole that it is when you've got all these network effects going on and the fact that financial industry itself is gonna pivot to blockchain technology. So all the securities industry, all the system of money, everything, right? So that's almost everything we know. So I set up an asset management business called exponential age asset management.
And it's a fund of hedge funds that people can basically get broad exposure of space by hedge funds. Why hedge funds are not VC? VC space is crowded with 57 billion going in in the last 15 months. Hedge fund space, the entire size of the hedge fund space, four billion.
There is the secondary market in crypto is entirely staffed of capital. So it's retail only plus a few trading firms of which one of them is just blown up. So the amount of capital in the space is super small.
But I know it's coming because I know how this rule but it's the secular trend. So here's the second trend, do that. So that's one business I've set up and we'll be launching a whole bunch of initiatives around that.
The second one was obviously if I believe that community is the most powerful force of business models going forwards that blockchain technology enables this in ways that we can't yet imagine. And that I saw originally, it all came to me down from a moment when I met RAC, the music artist. And he explained to me, because what he'd done with NFTs and social tokens.
And this was three and a bit years ago. And I just heard him sort in my head immediately is, oh my God, everybody's going this way. And so I kicked that around in the head.
And then was speaking to a friend I grew up with, David Pemcel, he used to be the CEO of the Guardian media group. He'd started a new business which was based around community kind of marketing around putting together community technology and brands and that Nexus. And I said, well, you're missing tokens.
And so I got him down the rabbit hole over lockdown, introduced him to Kevin Kelly from Delphi and we decided to co-found a business called Science Magic Studios. So it's sciencemagicstudios.xyz. And our basic theory is everybody is trying to tokenize from the ground up. We're seeing it in NFTs.
Now you guys doing probably the best job of doing that. And they've gone from NFTs into the social tokens, which is my big thesis, which is how this plays out because your digital sovereign state can have its own system of money. And that's what the system of value transfer.
And that's what the social tokens are. And people haven't seen this yet, but it's going to come at scale. FTX was another one, which has been immensely successful.
That's on a still four and a half billion dollar value of a utility token or social token and eight coin being the other one. And so the idea is to tokenize the world's largest cultural communities. So culture is the new asset class.
And cultures based around communities are, generally speaking, music, fashion, sports, movie, TV and book franchises. Those are the big cultural icons if you leave out religion, that almost everybody plays a part in. And those are going to become tokenized.
Why? Because they're all intangibles on balance sheets. And I saw the number, I can't remember where it came from McKinsey or somebody that there was $63 trillion of intangibles on global balance sheets. How they get to that number, I've no idea.
But let's assume it's directionally right. Well, probably 20% of that is going to get tokenized via what you're doing is essentially tokenizing the intangible of brand culture and community. What is the value of Disney? Their community and the culture of Disney.
Well, it ain't the $300 million, the billion dollars the stock's worth. It's probably a couple of trillion. It's probably one of the single most valuable communities on earth.
And once you start to see the world in these terms and how you share that network with the users as opposed to exploit the network. So Facebook is shareholders got rich, we got utility and then got monetized. But tokenization changes the equation because we all participate in the network.
Bitcoin is essentially a digital sovereign state of which you can participate by owning a token. And if the sovereign state succeeds over time, then you will benefit from that in your society. So it's this nexus between NFTs, Metaverse, social tokens that is going to take the entire corporate world, the cultural world by storm.
And this is when brands are gonna learn they've got no community and they've got no culture. And others will learn they've got unbelievable amounts of community and culture they didn't realize and everybody's gonna change what they're doing. So that's what Science Magic Studios does.
We're already speaking to some of the biggest people in the music industry, biggest people TV. I mean, we've been interested so many people because everybody is looking at this. And meanwhile, everyone's looking at what's the next NFT community that's gonna take off.
All right, guys, there's space over there. It's like this fucking Mars, let's go there.
SPEAKER_00
Two categories, you brought up religion as one. And that's just fascinating. The two categories that I'm curious about, politics and religion.
Do they ever tokenize?
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you know, politics, you're dead right. I hadn't even thought about it, but obviously. And now that's the, you know, if you look at the US, it's basically two sovereign states right now, which is again, point Bellagie raises and everybody's living with.
Why would you not? You can tokenize it. I think you'll tokenize municipalities as well. We're also seeing like, like, there's some things that people don't realize how big they are and what was the constitution now? Yeah, it didn't work, but you coalesce what? 40 something million in capital in about a day and a half in a Dow around an idea.
I mean, holy shit, that changed politics forever. People just don't know it yet. Andrew Yang is starting to see this already.
So he's, I think, got a Dow structure to do stuff. But, yes, politics could be tokenized because if you're a badge wearing, Republican or a badge wearing Democrat or a progressive, it's a self identification of a community. And those communities, yes, somewhat geographically separated, but not always.
So there is a way of having your own system. And then you become as ever missionaries for the network. But, you know, I mean, the US is struggling with that already.
What I actually like about crypto as an aside on politics, I think the largely right and wrong, but I think that what's so interesting about it is I can hang out on finance Twitter and it's very political. You know, the people who want to be long oil tend to be on the right. And the people who want to buy Tesla tend to be on the left.
Why it's a political thing, but it is, right? As opposed to an investment. We should be just thinking of everything neutrally as an investment. Crypto is really interesting.
There's very little politics in crypto. It's one thing we can fight over everything else, but we don't fight about this. And what it is, is I think it's a purely capitalist system with extremely progressive values, because it's a community.
So you kind of got both ends of the spectrum blended together.
SPEAKER_00
If you're a government listening, reach out to Raoul and his team, they're interested. I mean, at the very least government should be exploring what it could look like, you know, at the very least.
SPEAKER_01
Yes. Yeah, I mean, it seems like a way to get people more involved in the political process and invested in it more broadly. It's also, I mean, the other reaction I had to everything you guys said there is, if you're a builder today and you're looking to start something, what better way to start something than starting with culture and community at the heart of it? And I know, Greg, you've been, you know, screaming that from the rooftops for a number of years now, but just listening to Raoul speak about what the opportunities look like there and like how, you know, the biggest brands who haven't built fervent communities are going to be disrupted and they're going to be torn down in the coming years by this.
If you're going to go try to disrupt, what better way to do it than with a fervent culture and community?
SPEAKER_02
And think about what also, what's so exciting about this is brands have been extractive, but they've been extracted from by Facebook and the advertising industry, all sorts of middlemen. The music industry is really obscene with it. The book and TV industry is really obscene.
In the end, there's going to be this lovely sharing of the spoils of building a great network between the brand and the customer. And there'll be a removal of middlemen. And the power of changing that business model is enormous.
I mean, trust me, Mark Zuckerberg is not stupid. He completely understands what is going on in Web 3 and why they have to change as a business. You know, knowing many people at Metta, they get it because they won't exist otherwise.
SPEAKER_01
Totally. He's a wartime general, man. Yeah. People that hate on Zuck, I'm like, it's fine to hate on him. It's like your point on Elon Musk.
It's like, people hate on these guys. I get it, hate on them, but Zuck is a wartime general. I don't, I would not bet against that guy.
SPEAKER_02
No, no way. And he's not jaded yet. I mean, I don't know how he's managed that, but he's not jaded.
He's gone and pivoted one of the world's biggest firms, pivoted it like that on a concept.
SPEAKER_01
You can do that as a, yeah, as a founder, you know, and principal owner. It's like, he's in a cool position because he's not quite as exposed to, you know, quarter to quarter marks, et cetera, can't be booted out. You know, he can think in, it's like Xi Jinping and why I'm so scared of China, frankly.
They have a 50 year plan and they can think on 50 year time scales while the US is sitting here bickering over, you know, two year midterm elections. Well, who's going to win that battle? Oh, so.
SPEAKER_02
If you're longterm or short term, it's scary as hell. Meeting with government here the other day with one of the ministers about crypto stuff and what all the Cayman Islands is doing and stuff. And he's like, well, he said it very clearly.
It was interesting. He goes, well, you've got to understand, I'm just a temp in my job. He said, you have, you know, at best four years, at worst two years before I get booted out.
That's how, I mean, that's not a good system to establish longterm strategic goals with.
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it goes back to what you said at the very beginning. I think it's actually, it's a great place to close too. I, you said in the context, I wrote it down here in the context of trading and investing, the alpha is longterm, everyone is short term.
So you need to go longterm if you want to generate alpha. And it's the exact same thing in politics and in strategy as a business owner or as a politician. If you are ultra longterm oriented and you can think on 50 plus year time horizons and you're thinking about these secular trends and you're investing behind them, building behind them, et cetera, you are going to generate so much more alpha than the person that's just going with the winds on a daily basis.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, or copying what somebody else is doing. Just, and it's again, it's the directionality. Where's the secular trend? Live in the future, imagine the future, build that.
SPEAKER_01
Love that. That's a great place to close. Man, what a conversation.
Took me to places that I did not expect I was gonna go today, especially around the space stuff. Man, Raoul, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02
What's that interview, Liam Alkalai?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we're looking forward to it. And everyone, they can find you on Twitter. Everyone should check out Real Vision.
I've been a very happy subscriber for a long time now and always learn a lot. Whether or not I agree with everything is a different story, as you said. Perfectly happy to have disagreement, but absolutely love the content you guys are consistently putting out.
So thank you so much for the time, man. This was awesome.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, thank you. Been waiting to do this, it's fun.
SPEAKER_01
Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If you have any questions that you want featured in a future episode, email us at high at trwh.com. Leave us a review at Apple or Spotify to help us grow the reach of this podcast. Until next time, we will see you soon.
When you think of it, pray you on it. Simple cup of tea. It's never let the world be broken in the morning.