SPEAKER_02
You need to divorce two brains if you're a product builder in this space. One is like why you're building and what you're building, what you're excited about. And the second is like degenerative greed, DGEN greed on like trading and then making money because if you let the two brains come together, it's going to get very messy for you and your enthusiasm, your motivation is going to be this like toxic mix of why are you building? You know? And so I think obviously for anyone that's in it for degenerative, the DGEN greed, they've lost a ton of enthusiasm as things pull down and then you got to like, you know, seek shelter.
But I think for a lot of people that are building it for what I would call the right reasons, which are like the primitives are changing and it's the promise of like a better future.
SPEAKER_01
All right. New episode of the Where It Happens podcast. Welcome, welcome.
Today's episode, I want to start off by telling a little story. When I was 21, I was working on a app called Five Buy and it was this video discovery app that allowed you to find the most interesting videos on YouTube. And I was living in Canada at the time, but I had to make a trip to Silicon Valley.
I had to see like where all these big companies started and grew from. So I went there for a few weeks and I got introduced to this entrepreneur who had started and sold a company to Google. I was already following him on Twitter.
So someone who I knew about. So I was really excited to meet him and I met him for coffee. I remember it was super rainy out and I, you know, I walk in there wet a few minutes late and I was just so excited to be there.
I apologize for being late. And I asked him, you know, what are you up to? What are you up to now? And he told me about how he was starting a video discovery app, how he had raised millions of dollars and I just, I felt my stomach turn. I was like, oh, my God, is this, is this my idea? Is he is he working on my idea? Of course he couldn't be.
But I ended up asking him to tell me more about it. And I said, hey, could you could you maybe show me what you're working on? So he pulls up his laptop and he starts pulling up the mockups for this app. And literally pixel for pixel, it was the same.
Like we had the same idea. And I cringe, right? I was this I was this early 20s. You know, not as much experience as him living in Canada.
He was this big shot, raised millions of dollars, has hired all these Google engineers and it was tough. And at the time, you know, I left that coffee shop and I didn't really have like a support network of entrepreneurs to to to call and say, like, you know, to voice how I'm feeling. And that's why this episode I wanted to bring on my good friend, Danny Trin.
Later I moved to San Francisco and Danny became one of those friends who I could definitely vent with. And I think that it's really important for entrepreneurs, founders, makers to have someone or ideally multiple people that they could be real with. So during this episode, there's tons of gems from Danny, but the importance of having that support network.
And, you know, I hope you really like the episode. Before we bring on Danny Trin, I wanted to make an announcement. The reason why we started the Where It Happens podcast was we wanted to give you an inside look into what happens behind closed doors.
There's so many conversations of well-known people happening behind closed doors. What if these conversations were open to everyone? What if it was like a FaceTime, basically? That two well-known entrepreneurs are having that was public. And one of the things I realized, you know, we've done a ton of interviews is the most interesting conversations happen with makers, they happen with builders.
And they happen in these three categories, community people, commerce people and creators. And why? Well, it's because those people are shaping the world. And we're shifting the format to only interview those types of people.
So if you're interested in those categories, you are going to be so excited about the guests we have lined up. The other quick announcement is my co-host, Sahel Bloom, is no longer going to be co-hosting with me. It's just going to be me.
He's focusing on his book and I'm focusing on this podcast, as well as my company, Lay Checkout. So I'm excited for him and I'm really excited about where the podcast is going. And I know you're going to enjoy this conversation with Danny Tran and what we've got cooking for you, because it is incredible.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02
Well, speaking of that, by the way, I remember the last time I was on, it's crazy to think that it was six months ago. So much has changed this year. I feel like at the end, you all were jokingly mentioning a part of all.
And I think I joke as like, are you all behind Partiful? Let me tell you, Partiful, since that time, good Lord, I feel like I see it everywhere. And it's just been crazy to see. Good for them.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. So you want to describe what Partiful is for people who didn't listen to that episode and why you might think it's interesting?
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, it's like it's a paperless post brought into the new era for mobile or like, you know, for SMS to just the way people might do invites. And there's obviously things like Facebook events and other things have died. There's been obviously a need to make it really easy to organize.
And at least here in New York, I've been seeing Partiful go out, even some birthday party or what not, or a dinner. It is set on a Partiful link. And it's really smart.
You know, it's on SMS. Like it's a website that you can just like text or snap to somebody. Yeah, I'm just genuinely surprised to see that it has consolidated and it's like a thing for sending out like a really quick and prompt to invite, you know?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think what's cool about it is like when I when I chatted with the founder, she was like, yeah, it's basically like, I don't know, paperless post, but for Gen Z. And when I when I go to websites where it's like, hey, it's this product for Gen Z or it's this product for millennials, like that never works. Like you can't say it's for that person.
You just kind of have to like. When I go to I just went to the Partiful website and it's like it's not like it says Gen Z anywhere on this website. Yeah, just like I mean,
SPEAKER_02
I know nothing about the team behind it, but I wish them all the success. It's pretty cool, especially in a space that's so crowded or has this full of so many, so many dead folks who tried it out. Yeah, wait, who are the Partiful founders?
SPEAKER_00
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SPEAKER_01
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So you shouldn't be surprised why we're big retool fans at where it happens. To learn more, you just got to go to retool.com. I only met one of them. I'm blanking on her name.
Her name is let's see. Hold up. I think her name is Joy Tao.
Oh, no, Shreya. That's who I met. And yeah, she's probably in her mid 20s, really product design or focus.
You can see it in the product. It feels very much like, I mean, you get it. It's like when you use the particle product, it feels really good.
When you use Eventbrite, you want to take a shower.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. I don't remember the last time I used Eventbrite, but yeah, I guess. And by the way, it looks like you just use Eventbrite because that hair is looking real, real, real clean.
Oh, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01
I just got out of an Eventbrite session. That's why, yeah, for the listeners, I just took a shower. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02
Well, yeah, I guess what else? What do you see these days? You see anything fun lately that's caught your eye?
SPEAKER_01
I'm curious. You know, I've been seeing a lot of stuff, you know, we chatted a little bit about Web 3, you know, obviously a lot has changed in Web 3 over the last six months. And I was just right before this, in between shower and this call, I was, I was reading Kupa Troopas newsletter around music NFTs.
Yeah. And I've just been fascinated with like Web 3 and music, thinking about royalties, thinking about like, you know, the role of the label. Curious to your perspective on music NFTs and then also just in Web 3 in general.
Like, what has changed? Are you still bullish? You know, talk to me.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, it's two things. Hey, especially music NFTs, definitely not my bag. I know a lot of people who were really kind of excited about it.
Or I know there's a lot of energy there. I think obviously a lot remains to be seen. So, you know, I think I saw something randomly.
It was like, it's called like Sounds XYZ or something. They released like some protocol or something. And anyways, very excited for them or like whatever, finding out there's a there there.
But I think that's the question. Is there a there there? So I think you have all these people like kind of telling each other it's going to be awesome for the future without, you know, a ton behind it. And but that's not to take away from them trying to change the foundation of it all.
I think Web 3 in general kind of reminds me of Web 2 right now. And that like, I don't think a lot of people remember Web 2, how Web 2, at least from where I'm sitting, ended. And then you have this like, oh, the future of the web is social.
And you had all these like, microblogging competitors like, oh, Web 2 is so exciting. It is the Ajax. We're going to age everything's going to be alive and it's going to be awesome.
But there was definitely a moment where like things got really tough and rough, like 2008 ish or like things consolidated. A lot of that stuff is now dead, you know, and it's nothing wrong with those founders or those people. But just, you know, even though there was this generation, you know, the internet becoming more modern or things that we now accept to be table sticks, a lot of stuff was cleared out.
And I think, you know, as we're in winter, we're so firmly in winter again, you know, there's just a natural consolidation happening of like, you know, so the less sturdy and frankly, some of the more hypey, noisy stuff is getting washed away and it's yeah, it's forced and focused to go back and focus. It's like, you know, it's beyond winter now. It's like nuclear winter.
It's like, I think it's bigger than any of the just Web 3 stuff. It's like the world we live in today. Where it's just really, really rough.
I mean, one thing, so I'll segue really quickly, like I'm pretty excited about October 11th, Japan's opening its borders for like non-business excuse travel. And it's like the US dollar versus the yen is an all time crazy high. And it's like, that's a bang, nothing to do with like crypto.
That's just the world we live in. Like, you know, things are just getting crazy and hectic. Like they think the euros at a 20 year historic low against the dollar and whatever, like all I'll say is it's kind of a crazy time we live in.
So I think Web 3, yeah, suffering for like the entire generation of companies right now, but so many others are too. So it's interesting to watch because I will say I think some of the best, most resilient founders and teams tend to get started or tend to survive, improve themselves for surviving periods like this. And, you know, this period is far from even over or frankly, even getting started.
I think we're still in the free fall. And this is the depth of some darkness. So, yeah, wishing God speed to all the folks out there trying to darn this to stay afloat and keep building and stay focused.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Could you touch you? Yeah, could you talk like I want to come back to the Web 3 thing, but I want to actually jump to Web 2 for a second, living in San Francisco during the heyday. Our buddy Addison just sent us a who was also, you know, in that scene, just as a text message of like a video of our buddy Jeff and a few other people, just like being in San Francisco at that era and, you know, social era.
Mobile was coming out. It felt like really exciting. Could you talk more about like and you were in it too, dude, like you were at dig, which was like one of the most, you know, hottest startups in social at the time path when the hottest mobile startups at the time.
Talk like what was it like in your in your mind being in SF at that time? Yeah, because like we've got thousands of listeners who just like. Well, weren't they one thing?
SPEAKER_02
One thing I'd say is that, OK, definitely 2008, you know, financial crash of its own, right, you know, that's the year I got to SF. You know, everyone now knows SF to be displaced. People are way overpaid, like the minimum like salary out of college for a good CS degree is like something crazy, you know, like everyone basically has expense lifestyles with like free kitchen, mini kitchens and laundry and buses and stuff.
And I think the one thing I'll say is like when you get to SF 2008, like there wasn't a ton of money floating around. Like it wasn't like every company that was alive was overfunded. You know, there was this cash everywhere.
It was kind of like this. Is this place where you you went there because you're just attracted to hanging out and seeing what other people were building, you know, and it wasn't because it was super lucrative. I'd argue, you know, Facebook, sorry, Google is on public, but it really was probably until Facebook IPO 2012 or so.
When things got kind of kind of crazy, you know, and so I'd say it was great about that period. That's from the same time, you know, Addison was out there and we all, you know, so many friends, friends that I keep to this day, lifelong friends were made was it was just like, hey, what do you have to what do you build in? My first apartment was in Hayes Valley because it was the place I could afford not because Hayes Valley, which is now like the cool, the cool kids, little mid market area. It's not just like you were kind of just surviving and trying to build stuff.
And like, again, it wasn't this crazy, like overvalued time. It was just a lot of fun. I think, frankly, there were so many people that had such bad, terrible, apocalyptic experiences with the first bubble, like 2000s, that they would almost like laugh about this idea of Web 2 or people doing startups again and like trying to make businesses or what not figured out.
And, you know, a lot of that was fair because a lot of those companies didn't make it. But what's funny is some of them are still still going strong today. Yeah. And it was a fun time. I think what was cool about SF in that time in or, you know, I don't know if your question is just about SF or Web 2, but I think what was so cool about the time was you bump shoulders casually with some of the best builders ever with like no agenda and then there was no ego.
It's just like, hey, oh, shoot. Like, oh, you're working on that. Like, oh, tell me more.
And you're like, would you want to get a burrito? Like, you know, walk around the mission, like get a fair lido or something or grab beer somewhere and it was just a really, I don't know, it was just a really. So yeah, a couple of times.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah. A couple of things. So first of all, I completely agree.
Like the start like today, like there's tons of startups that are like flush with cash back then, like even the startups that were quote unquote flush with cash. Like when we we didn't there wasn't that much money there. It was very much like us versus them.
Like didn't path, you know, I don't know. Yeah. Path was tried or Google tried to buy path at one time. And I remember like, I think it was like a hundred million dollars or more.
And I remember like everyone was kind of like, no, we can't do like path users were like, no, no way, they can't do it. Like it felt very us and them now. I mean, I guess it feels like that a little bit or sorry.
It felt very us versus them back then. It still feels that way a little bit now, but it's not. It was way, it felt way more of that back then.
Do you agree?
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I think back then everything was just a little faster and lose six you didn't know what you didn't know. Right. Like I think 2010 that particular year things changed. The iPhone 4 changed.
It was like a seismic shift. Right. Finally, the camera was good enough. Right. And then in the following years, as connections got better and like the mobile and cellular connection got better, there was a seismic shift. And so there was no like right or wrong way to do things.
Right. Whereas I'd say like if you look at consumer now, like I think it's a pain cave for a founder to go out without some angle or tragedy and how they're going to get distribution. You know, like what advantage are you going to have? Because say you make something great, it's going to get copied or snatched up by somebody so fast, you know.
And so yeah, I think especially around then it was a little bit of the wild rest that you didn't know. You were undergoing the shift to mobile. And I know there's an entire solo movement, which made me cringe at the time.
It still makes me cringe to say it out loud today. But like explain what that is.
SPEAKER_01
For people who don't know what that is.
SPEAKER_02
Well, they're pillars that now sound really damn obvious, which is like, can you make social, location, mobile experiences or companies or products? And yeah, at the time it was an entire wave, right? Like you began with like the first bit. I think it's South by 2009 where you had Portsware and Guala, you know, and it's like at the now seems so medieval and primitive to be like, oh, my phone knows where DPS. I might be able to check in to a place where I'm at.
Right. And obviously so many people have built on that. Right. But yeah, there was this crazy Cambrian explosion of people, you know, taking different bits and legos and assembling different ideas, you know, off of these like big new things that were unlocked, right? Like Guala was the competitor at school to see Josh Williams and Co. And he's gotten like a lot of that original Guala team back and they're out trying to do it again.
But you know, Guala was at the exact same time and was building some very different things with these little collectibles and little like passports, you know, that you could you could drop or leave for others, you know. And so those are just the first two. Like, I think there were so many other companies that got going around that time, you know, obviously Instagram won it all at that time.
You know, but there are so many others, right? Like, they're so I give it it's it's yeah, it's it kind of is a reminder that like any given moment, especially like when you talk about what three or any like next generation of companies. Yeah, a ton of the things that sound great and awesome are probably going to go, you know, be like the you know, erased or or or or not make it. But yeah, it was it was a fun time.
Yeah, so my mind is randomly thought of Vine for a second. And I was like, oh, I miss I miss Vine. Oh, no, Vine is firmly under the solo.
It was definitely a social and mobile. Oh, there's a location stuff in there. But yeah, Vine, I'm kind of straight.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think like Vine had a magic moment for so many people when people downloaded it and it felt just so different, like it was six seconds, I think, right? Those six second videos. And it was also so we were talking about part of like really well designed.
Vine was also really well designed. Totally. Yeah, I think the other cool thing about it was you I mean, it was the precursor to TikTok, of course.
But like you could post something on Instagram, get no love, but post something on Vine and like, you know, I have a friend, you know, I had random like my friend Jerome Jar, who got like millions of followers on Vine was like this random French guy who just would post funny videos and then change his life.
SPEAKER_02
You know, and I think that's the crazy. The crazy part to me is that probably there's hundreds of millions of this generation of TikTok, either users or creators who probably may not even remember Vine, but yeah, Vine is definitely in the DNA, you know, like the looping video, the talent show, like how how funny can you be within those constraints? You know, even that you have stitching things together, right? Like obviously, Vine was in the first to do that, but they were the first really to bring that mechanic out there. Yeah, I miss it.
Now, yeah, I think they died a slow and painful death. But you know, it's just the nature of our industry, right? Because like everyone's kind of building on the shoulders of other people. Yeah, and it's what a good app.
SPEAKER_01
I guess that's kind of where I want to shift gears a bit, which is OK, I figured it out. I want to shift gears to we we lived in San Francisco in our 20s during the height of, you know, social and mobile. And we partook in that economy and we had some really high highs and some really low lows, right? Yeah.
I can picture them now. And there's a whole like we were the young kids then, like we were the Gen Z back then, right? Like we were we were the up and comers now and we're in our 30s. Like we're we've been there and done that and we're kind of older.
So. What like what can what do you take away from your time doing social, mobile, SF that you can impart to the next generation in terms of how do you build products that are going to you know, that people are going to love?
SPEAKER_02
But you know, one thing I'd say is there's a lot to unpack there, but it's funny when you said Ben, they're done that. I actually something I try to pride myself in is this notion of the beginners behind that just because you know, you maybe maybe learn a particularly painful lesson or you learn you tried something and didn't work that you can like continue to keep that freshness and that that enthusiasm to keep exploring, you know, things you're interested in. It's funny how I said I would never work in consumer social again, but look at where I am now, then it's like, we end up back here.
And one thing I'd say with the benefit of hindsight on that time was the joy of beginning, the joy of starting was a superpower, right? Like something I tell all kinds of young people is when they get started, especially designers and creatives are industry is like, you may not be money rich, but you're definitely time rich. And when you have when you're time wealthy, which means you have like a ton of times like work nights and weekends and like work maybe on a schedule that it would be uncomfortable for a lot of other people who have other likes, whatever, who have like kids or whatever, I was not the wrong kind of kids, by the way. It's just that you can try more things and you can be a beginner, but much more frequently.
And that's something I think is super important, you know, like, especially as our industry gets fuller and fuller of people, just like you and I, we've had a certain set of experiences and certain years out there. As all the people want to tell you, like how you should be doing things or how you should approach things or let me tell you about that time we were growing LinkedIn or let me tell you about that time we were making Tinder grow on US and UCLA's campus and it's like, OK, sure, maybe it worked that way then, but it may not work that way now. And I think that that was one thing in SF that really caught on.
I if some of my spandex memories are like when you're listening to the experts are listening to like, you know, the people who have been there, done that, tell you how you need to be growing and tell you how you need to be approaching a problem, you know, it was it was it was often really bad advice. And so I did this one story that actually resonates with me, which is we were, you know, all in a mobile and like building out apps for the iPhone and Android. And literally, there was someone who insisted that because his grandmother didn't have a smartphone, we need like dedicate to web engineers to sending an email digest to her for her to like, you know, be able to follow.
And in hindsight, now I would tell that person to fuck off. But in the moment, you're like, oh, wow, this is a very experienced smart person who's telling us about the total addressable, whatever, being back that and the other. OK, yes, let's spend two of our four web engineers.
That makes sense, right? And and yeah, what I'd say, I don't want to cherry pick on that person. But I'd say like in general, SF, I'll probably carry these values with me lifelong that there will always be some notion of like experts are like the right people telling you how things need to be. And especially a consumer, the way you grow is constantly evolving.
Right. It's so dynamic. Yeah, I'm curious for you, but you take because I know that we had the experience of the highest highs and lowest lows together.
I'm very curious for you. You put the question on you. You know, what comes to mind?
SPEAKER_01
Well, I mean, going back to our earlier conversation about where the pod is going, like I want to bring on builders, like I don't want to bring on VCs, like I think that and this is kind of a hot take, I think. But just because you invest in a company doesn't mean it's your company. So a lot of VCs, what they'll say is, oh, one of our companies, oh, I so they invested out of their fund, which they invested from LPs, so not even their own money.
Yeah, they're going and they invest. And then they're saying, oh, part of full. Yeah, that's one of our companies.
Yeah, sorry, sorry, Chad. Yeah, but just because you wired the money does not you are not in the trenches. And you are not in the trenches.
You play a meaningful role in your connection with the business and it wouldn't exist in its current state without you. But yeah, but I still think that, you know, I much rather when I when I'm training notes around building consumer products, I want to talk to Shreya. I don't want to talk to.
Yeah, the VC here.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I think, yeah, all perspectives are valuable that I can agree with you. But I know there's some sometimes folk like VCs. It's almost like they're claiming credit for the success of the company, singular credit.
I mean, it's like, yeah, of course you help them. But like, it's yes, it's a little dirty when they it's almost like they're taking credit for the success of this. And was it was especially funny, though, is like when they take credit years after or like talk shade, what's worse is not even taking credit when they talk.
When they really talk shade on the founder who has been successful after them or whatever. And I think that's the entire other tangent. But yeah, man, like builders tend to be the most fun to hang out with, you know, shared misery and shared joy, you know, of the process.
And yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01
Most I mean, that's how that's how we bonded. Like we bonded. I don't know if you remember, but we it was right before you, you know, you had a trip.
We went to what was that beer garden in the Southern Pacific? So, yeah. Yeah. And I remember exactly where we were. We were at the second level.
And you were just talking to me about free, which you should tell people what it was. Because it was like ahead of its time. So like crazy ahead of its time.
And it was so right on so many levels. And you were having a hard time, frankly. Like in, you know, and, you know, not because you weren't executing well, just because startups are difficult and consumer social is difficult and teams are hard.
And and we were bonding over that shared misery, I think. But yeah, tell folks what free was the timing, you know, because I think it's relevant.
SPEAKER_02
Well, so I'll give some context that basically it passed. One of my last things that worked on was our messenger. And I remember I literally put like the Targaryen symbol to dragon symbol from Game of Thrones on the room when we shipped that messenger.
And mind you, this is before Facebook Messenger got their act together. Like Facebook Messenger, like you suppose like a very basic thing at the time. And we really build like what would be what would be past take, you know, on a messenger and kind of went crazy there.
And so all say is from building that messenger saw, holy cow, the numbers around the messenger are just different, you know, like we also technically have the same loop as stories, but you now would consider stories, but you could post a photo and someone like, post a photo once a day and like come back like five, 10 times a day to see who else has seen it because that's what we call them seen it. But the numbers change for messenger, like the amount of time someone uses an app and it's a messenger just like crazy. And so I was like, OK, I really want to go build a messenger, but I want to build a messenger with the purpose and the purpose is like it owns that first message in the conversation.
And the classic is how to tell everyone is like reminds you of like this Zeezen's Ari joke where he says, if you look on my phone on a Sunday, I'm like a psycho, it's I'm texting all my friends. Hey, want to grab brunch? Hey, want to grab brunch? Hey, want to grab brunch? You know, I think our friend Nikita has a funny joke where he says like every social founder at one point shows a bank and app for like getting people to hang out together, IRL. And it's so true.
I think free free is definitely my my my my version of that lesson. I think free. Yeah, it was it was the other way I would refer to it was like I grew up on AOL and some messenger and I missed the green dot when you go home, sign in to your buddy, let's see who's green and like for the green people, you can chat with them.
They were your friends. I wanted that for the real world. And so I just wanted to see who was free any given moment.
And like the Hornagon door or like the bat signal, whatever. We built it. I won't bore you with all the details or build bore the people you're a little details, but solve so many problems.
I think there are pieces of its new user experience on boarding that's still echoing a lot of apps today. You know, I we had a ton of fun building it, but also ton of yeah, ton of joy, ton of misery. And yeah, I think when at the time, I also remember distinctly that they were at Southern Pacific.
I think it was one of those moments where the founder you feel like you have you start to get a muscle for sketching out nine, twelve, 18 months in advance, even. Which at the time as a 22, 23 year old, I was not very good at, you know, and I was like, damn, I think I think this is I don't know. I don't know.
I don't know what's happening here. And what I'll say is I think a lot of my conversation with other founders today, and I see myself in so many founders I hang with today, like it's that realization of like, damn, I don't know who else I can talk with like this, you know, because I use it because think about it with a team. You feel like give great, you know, you're going to keep the inspiration, like that energy on Mondays and through the week of like, yeah, here's the vision.
And like maybe your investor updates, maybe you don't know truly how to be that handed, like, you know, or to speak that bluntly. Because you also want to like inspire confidence and faith in the team. And I think it's a very special type of like trusted relationship.
It can be with investors too, or like other founders or operators you trust. But it's a very specific type of relationship where you can kind of share that, you know, and talk through it and really sketch out all the options, you know, for what they'll all look like. Yeah, and I remember that day was a special day and a special weekend, but we don't dive into that, you know, I, yeah.
That was a good, that was a meaningful, that was a really meaningful time.
SPEAKER_01
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think. You do have to put on a bit of a face when you're talking to your team or VCs or advisors, like it's hard to be 100% unfiltered. But with other builders, it's hard not to be.
It's hard to be anything but 100% unfiltered. Right. So it's your time to be like, OK, here's what's really going down. I'd really love your opinion on XYZ.
And I don't think I don't know if I've said this on the pod yet, but every year, me and a group of six or seven entrepreneurs used to rent a house in LA. And it was like a mastermind, basically, of founders. And we actually hired a moderator and we hired like a chef.
And I know this is some bougie as hell, but like, you know, initially, not a lot of us had money, we just like poured it into this. And we would sit there and we would all work on each other, you know, work with each other, unfiltered mastermind founders. And like we had like Sean Pory was one of those founders.
Julian Smith, who you know, who's been on is a guest friend of the pod. You know, he came up with Brether there. I came up with islands there, Flowwater, Nicholas Reichenbach, who you know, it's in every Whole Foods, Cross the Nation.
He came up with it there. It's not publicly traded company. And I've been thinking a lot about masterminds and I want people to hit me up if this is interesting to them.
SPEAKER_02
But like, we got to we got to we got to we got to bring it back. You know, I think it'd be I think it'd be awesome to bring it back.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think it's awesome also because like, especially because so many of us live on Twitter and places like that where it's just like, you just, OK, there's a couple of things. So people are, you know, spend a lot of time on Twitter and you can't really get feedback really on places like that. And then big events, big conferences and stuff like that is just like, you're not it's so hard to find your people there.
So like these smaller like six to eight, ten, high quality, trusted people, bring them together, do it, you know, do it proper. I feel like that, first of all, I feel like that's it's a huge opportunity for founders. And also like, I feel like it needs to exist.
And like, I also think you can build a business around that.
SPEAKER_02
I tell you, I'm just weird a Tiffany other day. Not Tiffany, but just like how hard I think of things. And it's funny that we're talking about this is such a public or semi-public forum, but it's like the more public a place is, even if it's for discussion, you know, conversation, the more judgment there is.
Right. And I think judgment, like the level of judgment in an area is inversely correlated to how like actually meaningful the interactions are going to be. You know, like they got on Twitter like, oh, it went viral with 300,000 likes, you know, you feel this like dopamine rip of like, wow, all these awesome people may have liked it or a lot of people saw it.
But like how meaningful was that versus a room that's low judgment, whereas someone can bring up some really deep shit or like some whatever's on their chest and like talk about it and know that like, no, this is not like something that's going to people like screenshot and share around and all that toxic, you know, whatever stuff is going to go there, but it's just a meaningful place. And so, yeah, I think about at least builders, you thrive in low judgment zones. Look, I've never been to Burning Man, and I think everyone has a their say.
It's now actually a high judgment zone from the from the Pina gallery of like, what actually happens at Burning Man these days. But I think the idea of a place where people can actually kind of let their air down and be themselves amongst a similar, all, you know, amongst other people, whether they know them well or not and then to share ideas and talk to them. Maybe they should sounds kind of awesome.
So anyways, your mastermind sound dope. I mean, I love the I love the join that the one that you the first one you do when you bring them back, you know?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, maybe we can even share this. Like, I think it needs to be sort of like it also needs to be fun, right? Like so we would do, you know, 50 percent, like structured. OK, everyone has a certain amount of time.
These are the questions you can ask. Like, I think the structure is really important. That's why the moderators key to the whole thing.
And then we would have fun at like night times, like dinners going out. I don't know if we can show this image. I saw like on a.
Like, you know, one time the only time I've shot a gun was in L.A. at one of these events. Oh, and yeah, maybe we can like post the like in the show notes.
I'll find the picture like 12 years ago.
SPEAKER_02
By the way, non sponsored plug. If you ever want a cool place to shoot guns in a place that isn't about shooting guns, drivetanks.com. I don't even know if it's still around, but it's in the midst of two hours. I said, Austin, you can literally drive tanks and then the belt.
It's like very safe to take care of it for you. And should you desire to, you know, build like a used car, like they'll let you aim the cannon and shoot it. Also, you'll let you shoot a howitzer.
I actually now remember you can also shoot actual guns like like very safe decals, like mini guns. It's very safe, very supervised, very like team offsite energy. But it's a great place to, you know, like blow off some steam, you know?
SPEAKER_01
It's pretty cool. Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm. I think if you're going to do an offsite mastermind type thing like that, like put it around something like that.
So you also have these like new experience, like how many times have you driven a tank, like for me, like never, right? So then like, not that I really want to drive a tank at all or shoot a gun, but like the fact that I'm going to do this with this group is like a bonding experience. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
I'm sorry, I just opened drive tanks.com and look at their sizzle reel on their front page and it's it's pretty, it's pretty awesome. You know, I kind of.
SPEAKER_01
Oh man, this is literally amazing. First of all, wow. So what I'm looking at is I can't, I can't believe this exists.
It looks like. Yeah. Like dude, it's a tank literally going over a fully like tank that could be in a rack or whatever, like going over a car. And like shooting missiles from it.
SPEAKER_02
I look, I've done this. I've done the like crush a car underneath it. I've definitely done this shot.
And I actually like this website. It's a pretty good, you know, like when I talk about conversion, like front page conversions, I'm like, it's so simple. It's called drive tanks.
com. They're three offerings or drive a tank, shoot a tank, shoot big guns. You know, they got to the point really quickly.
So it's pretty good.
SPEAKER_01
OK, I'm pulling up the price list. I'm curious how much this cost. Wow. OK. So there's a bunch of tanks. They've got like 12 different types of tanks.
I got to be real with you all. I have no idea what the different tanks are. But the cheapest tank to drive is going to cost you 600 bucks.
Yeah. Yeah, which is totally doable. The most expensive like baller you came up with a billion dollar idea today at the end of the mastermind is the Stug 3.
It's twenty two hundred dollars.
SPEAKER_02
You know, some good and the end. Yeah, it's you know, I'm not I'm really not here to plug them. I think they have some packages too.
But you know, hey, for what people spend on like bottle service in the club versus a once in a lifetime memory driving a tank, you know, I think they're there, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01
Cool. No, I'm happy you made I'm happy you talked about that. So no, I think yeah, I think it's really important to to to drive tanks at your at your at your mastermind.
And I think like. Yeah, just do do things that are that are going to open you up both on on the structured piece of it of coming up with ideas, but also on the bonding piece of it, too. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Going back, we talked a little bit about, you know, sort of Web 2 SF. And but before that, we talked about Web 3 and I want to I want to understand what what Danny Tran's current state, you know, lay of the land of how you're feeling about Web 3 and right now.
SPEAKER_02
Oh, gosh, I think my short answer would be, you know, it is definitely certainly winter. I think there's a lot of really cool people that I'm seeing charting forward and continuing to build. I think it's it's it's kind of poetic that one of them is Kevin, you know, I think he recently just moved down to LA and like there's really building out the proof team for my understanding there and like really going for it.
I'm excited. Yeah. And it's yeah. It's it's it's crazy last week.
Yeah, I just realized that a bunch of other great people in that same in the same crew and family were all there and kind of pushing and so I say like it's kind of awesome to see, you know, that yeah, that is that same kind of that's what's the right word for. Yeah. The perseverance and also the conviction to keep going like it's that's awesome to see now overall, I have a lot of other crazy shit like Dukwon, you know, he's got Interpol, he's got a code right on out for him. That's kind of awesome.
Sorry, I don't want to I don't want to laugh at other people's misfortune. I think it's just, you know, there's all kinds of corrections on the good and bad. And yeah, it's it's it's it's a spicy time.
I mean, it's it's absolutely winter. So, you know, a lot of the jokers are going to leave a lot of the tourists are going to leave and it's it's definitely for the best. I think this time last year, you're probably a peak, hike, mania.
That just left like bad. Not and OK, I want to probably some point, not bad. That was all bad, just that there was a lot of noise that probably wasn't healthy.
Absolutely not healthy. Yeah, we're back to winter. If you believe in the space, you believe in the space.
If you're someone who was talking shit about it all the last 18 months or years, you feel very right, you feel very like validated. I don't think this will be the last winter. I think that there will absolutely be a future here.
And yeah, I'm excited to see how it all goes down. Yeah, I think if anything, it's it's period that teams can be quiet, less attracted, I think about it. You had a team in this space over the last 18 months, especially on the run up.
You're probably dealing with a bunch of more than 18 months, years. You're dealing with a bunch of crazy distractions or probably everyone's trying to hire there are other other people constantly wondering, like, am I working on the right thing? Am I missing out on life changing opportunity, work on something else or trading something else or whatever? And now that things are more quiet, like there's going to be a ton more folks who are just focusing, like, you know, kind of really pure about things and doing and making making the moves they want to make. And I think we'll see where it all nets out who even knows the rest of the world and that's out, you know, right now, like, I think we're probably another six or nine months of a minimum of like sliding into finding where the bottom of darkness is.
So something I definitely don't think about every day. It's not my day job, but it's definitely something I'm keeping keeping tabs on.
SPEAKER_01
You know, yeah, how do you like? I know I know you've got a day job, but I do know that you're also like a lot of Web two founders in that era. Like we talked about Josh Williams, like he's in Web three now. Kevin Rose, Web two, you know, prolific Web two founder.
He's in Web three. Yeah, I've been doing a lot of Web three stuff and a lot of our friends in that, you know, Donnie Dinch, Web three now. What do you like? Why do you think we're attracted to Web three and why do you think that we're still excited about it? And do you have like, are you less or more excited about it than, let's say, a year ago?
SPEAKER_02
I, so there's something that there's some advice I gave about this stuff to we ran almost literally this time last year to someone that was just getting into it. I was like, you need to divorce two brains if you're a product builder in this space. One is like, why are you building it? Why are you building what you're excited about? And the second is like the generative greed, DGEN greed on like trading and then making money because I'm like, if you let the two brains come together, it's going to get very messy for you and your enthusiasm and your motivation is going to be this like toxic mix of why are you building, you know? And so I think obviously for anyone that's in it for degenerative, the DGEN greed, they've lost a ton of enthusiasm as things pull down and then you got to like, you know, seek shelter.
But I think for a lot of people that are building it for what I would call the right reasons, which are like the primitives are changing and it's the promise of like a better future. Yeah, I think a lot of those people and everyone I talk to is it's almost like this is usual, like they're continuing on amidst the challenge. Right. And this is not the first or last time that people in this space have dealt with crazy challenges or being told they're completely wrong and silly. Like it's funny to me, I actually remember probably around that time, 2016, when you and I were hanging out in something specific where like, I feel like it was chat bots, AI and crypto were like the three like laughing.
Like you could like the butt end of every joke. Right. Like, oh, remember that person who worked on chat bots, remember that person who worked on crypto stuff, remember that person who worked on AI and it's kind of funny now, at least in 2022, that I'm like, AI, like nothing to joke about with AI, like some of crazy, truly like crazy shit is happening before our eyes and like making it into very like into the mainstream. Right. Crypto, like, and no one's laughing about, I mean, you may laugh at the collapse, but like you're laughing at that collapse, laughing at the economies collapse, which is, you know, that's your provocative and maybe a chat box. Like if anyone's working on a chat bot now, I'd still be like, what do you do in there? Folks.
But so what I do is like, what are you doing there folks? Like that's probably my PC. It's my like PC, whatever. But like, but you know, it goes in cycles, right? And like, I think the thing about people who are generally excited about these things, like their enthusiasm gets tested.
And retested. And the ones that tend to last through multiple winters and do the best are the ones that keep persisting, right? Like if your conviction in some of these spaces is so low that you can, you know, you can drop this quickly, you probably aren't working in the right space. You know, and if anything, I think one thing we can't deny is that the conversation's changed, right? Like the conversation on the types of people who are interested in this stuff and the types of things are building is now like we've opened, we've gone through a one-way door, right? Because so many major companies, so many major like universes of IP are into this now.
It's going to be really exciting to see what happens. I think that's the one thing about right now, you're like, oh, are you so excited about it? Like, well, whether I am or not excited about it, I'm absolutely not going to ignore it. You know, like the thing about it right now is like, it's typically the people that ignore shifts like these are the ones who are the cautionary tales.
It's like the Nokia guy talking shit about the iPhone, you know, or like or like all the like the big consumer web apps that were like kind of shitting on like the roof to mobile in general, you know? And yeah, it's I think typically the folks who were default dismissive of interesting new things, typically take years to bore out. Those are the ones that like, you know, history always remembers as the fools. And so I think right now, look, sometimes, like guess what, been here before multiple times, you know? And so I think it's it's interesting to see, you know, so, you know,
SPEAKER_01
what are your thoughts on web three loyalty? I saw a few weeks ago, Starbucks obviously launched a really big push into loyalty. I'm curious what you think around that.
SPEAKER_02
That that's in the I hope that a recording of his podcast doesn't become a cautionary tale, me sounding like an idiot a few years from now. I think my media reactions, like it's cool to see them build, it's cool to see them experiment back to where you're talking about like SF 2008. It's like when I was teenager, still in my youngster and a beginner's mind at heart, I'm like, it's awesome to see people experimenting.
Even it doesn't work out. I'm like, net net something they did when in that experiment will probably be a building block that someone else grabs and uses and takes off. I think Starbucks is probably going nowhere.
Maybe this is like the funny quote for like two years from now. Starbucks and clothes. But like, I don't think Starbucks is going anywhere.
So cool to them to experiment with some stuff. Maybe they'll change their approach. Maybe they won't, you know, it's kind of like motor before the iPhone motor roll made the rocker with Apple, which are the 99 song limit on it.
And then with this, if this is the iPhone, this is not the future. I'm like, OK, I think people will experiment with loyalty stuff. Just as like music entities are trying to figure out what the part of like, yeah, what the fuck that actually all means, you know? But yeah, I think that's essential to getting there.
There's a book I really love about like, you know, like a good model for innovation is like you have artists and soldiers, right? And like if they're defined by their relationship with risk, right? And so like soldiers are fundamentally about low risk because you don't want to kill everybody and artists are fundamentally about high risk. You're rewarded to take lots of risks and to fail a lot, fail a lot. And typically soldiers and artists hate each other's guts because they misunderstand each other.
Like soldiers look at artists and like you don't do any work, you don't have any discipline, you're just trying a bunch of stuff that goes nowhere. And artists look at soldiers and like you're so like, like, unafraid of trying anything new and like you're so you're like, you're going to be like left behind. And I would say that's the moment where we are right now.
Like in one of these like, you know, winters where the artists and the soldiers look at each other and think the other one is the fool, right? Like there are many artists like you're talking about like you're talking to great friends that are going to continue to push on and try things, Starbucks, what not? Like I think there's a ton of other companies trying stuff. And the soldiers who are like trying to survive, you know, in economic recession or worse are looking at them like you idiots. I can't believe you're continuing to move on, you know, and that's my take of right now is that it's artists and soldiers.
I use the same model actually, like for people who are working teams where you have an office still, you know, the people who come in super early and we also leave early and people who come in super late and leave late. And I'm like, oh, there's those two people judge each other just at different times of the day. Like those early people come in and they're like, oh, I can't believe so and so I was not here yet.
And then those people that come in late, see those early people leaving earlier, like, oh, I can't believe you're calling it. You're throwing in the towel so early, you know? And so, you know, fleshing at my answer here, I think when I look at stuff like Starbucks or I see people trying out stuff, I'm like, okay, I think I net bias towards the artist lens, which is I love seeing people try stuff, even if it goes, you know, to zero and fails because that's what gives me energy, you know, like seeing people like take a shot. Now, yeah, I do I advise the artist lifestyle for soldiers or the soldier lifestyle for artists? No.
And so, you know, I think especially when you look at something as polarizing as WebDo right now, it's like really easy for folks on both sides to get really entrenched in their positions. And so maybe my last thing on this long ramble, I'd say is like, I would ask someone where they think they are, like deep down on it. And if they could empathize for a second for a little bit with the other side.
And that's my take on Web3. Like it's a look in the mirror for how you feel about these things in general. And so someone who's a soldier by day works a big company life and like only like scales things, let's like two to five, 10% covered in gains.
Look at some of these moves as like really risky or like career ending. And I'm like, okay.
SPEAKER_01
That's just what for what you're saying.
SPEAKER_02
People are experimenting.
SPEAKER_01
Like it's like, and I think, you know, I'm happy that on the start, you know, from a startup of one to a startup of Starbucks or a company of Starbucks, like that we're kind of. But we're kind of. We're not taking the status quo as like, okay, this is the world we live in.
And like, these are the products that exist. No, we're going to like push the envelope over here, push the envelope over here, try different things. And we'll find out what, what is going to resonate with, with folks.
Yeah. But I think, I think it's cool that, first of all, I love the soldier artist and like kind of way of thinking about it. And I also think it's cool that I happen to be on your camp.
Like I love, I'm like, when I see people on Twitter, for example, like seeing the launch of a startup and being like, but actually, you know, like the but actually guy. But actually this is a bad idea because XYZ. And it's like, no, like we need to celebrate people builders.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. I mean, if anything, think about like, I look at this, like if you're a meme account that loves to like trade on being like, you know, making hilarious jokes, but other people and God knows I love a good meme. I love, I love, there's so many accounts I find very hilarious.
But net net, I think a lot of those meme accounts pander to like the soldier type who likes to be, you know, like, yeah, look at that failure. Or like, oh, so clearly bad. Or like, oh, got them, you know, got them.
Yeah, got them. You know, like, ooh, and I'm like, okay, go back to your like, whatever life, you know, like they chuckle at the meme, they they hard and they move on with their like, whatever the fuck they're doing for the rest of the day. And it's like, okay, you know, the it is, it's what makes this account successful.
And like, it's, it's what gets their engagement up, you know, and I can't knock that hustle either, because they're slowly trying to like, get like blow up and then make a business. I'm sure whatever they're doing, like, it'd be hilarious. Um, this just not, you know, I'd like to think in my pure heart that I, I'm not, I'm not there, even though I know I'm probably very guilty of that same type of dunking sometimes.
But yeah, like, I think that that it's on the on the spectrum of like soldier to artist, like the audience of the people, like, giving all that like feedback of I got them are just like, send not to be artists, you know, like, and that's fine. It's solely fine. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01
Cool. Let's, uh, that's a mic drop. I think that's a lot for people to digest and think about where they sit on the spectrum and, um, artists versus, versus soldier and, um, D Trin, you're, you're, you're, you're in your family, you know, you're not just a friend of the pod, you're, you're in the family.
So thanks for coming back on and, uh, where could people find you on the internet?
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, just D, D Trin is my, my Twitter. And what I'd say is I, I hope you stay safe with hurricane Ian. I hope that maybe when this comes out there, hopefully early hurricane Ian is well past, you know, um, or else your hair is going to get a lot more wet.
You know what I mean? You're going to, you're going to record a podcast like in the little, a little hurricane. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's always a lot of, uh, event pride RSVPs, you know,
SPEAKER_01
hurricane Ian, it's just hidden hidden that event pride RSVP a few times.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. Um, but yeah, which can be all the best man and, and, and, and friccantively, I think anything, this is just like a semi-public FaceTime with you. So I, I'm like, um, glad to catch up and then see you and hear your voice.
SPEAKER_01
It's great to see you. It's great to hear you. And then that's like, that's the new vision of the, where it happens.
Pot is just like catching up with friends, basically, publicly, who are interesting in creators, commerce and community. And, and then people will listen to this and you're going to be smarter because you're going to listen. You know, you might not agree with everything we say.
Oh, shit. Yeah. Go for it, Danny.
SPEAKER_02
No, I have a crazy idea for your format. I mean, if you call it like FaceTime with friends, it can be really like your screen recording and like your action. It's like, it's an off that to make, keep it authentic.
It's like, you kind of tell, maybe you tell it. It's almost like, remember, like who wants to be a millionaire? You would tell the, the phone or friend, people roughly to be available in case their friend was on the show and they're being called. But like, you could show literally you FaceTime with some people and they're not there.
They hang up or like this, say like, they don't answer the call and then finally someone picks up and they're like, Yatsy, you know, um, and like, and that's who we got this week, you know, uh, but like, you just keep it in real. They're like, Hey, we try to be people like, uh, you know, and then bam, like, right now we're just going to FaceTime with friends and keep it super chill.
SPEAKER_01
Um, I like that. I mean, dude, there's enough interview podcast, like where it's like, okay, Hey, like, so tell me about, tell me your story. And it's like, okay, I went to here and went to there.
It's like, no, I think that's, you know, going back to like the trenches and stories in the trenches, I think people, that's, I think that's what people want to hear.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so thanks, thank you for coming on and being, uh, episode number one of the V2 of where it happens. Uh, and, and you know, folks, uh, stick with us cause it's going to be, it's going to be a good time and, uh, you're not going to want to miss it.
So thank you so much. Subscribe. Subscribe.
Yeah. Make sure, make.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. Make sure you smash that like comment, subscribe button. You know it.
SPEAKER_01
You know, YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcast, tell your friends, tell your friends where it happens is what's happening. Thank you.