SPEAKER_00
This is it. Legends, Dicky Bush, former Black Rock employee, turned writer aficionado, ship 30 for 30 co-founder, Nicholas Cole, one of the best World of Warcraft players in the world, in North America at least. Now he's an author and also co-founder of Ship 30 for 30.

Welcome to the show. So good to have you.

SPEAKER_01
What's going on, Brad?

SPEAKER_02
It's a sight to be here. That's my claim to fame, apparently.

SPEAKER_00
Well, it was just interesting to me, because I had always known you as the Ship 30 for 30 guy. And then when I saw that you played Warcraft and you were competitive, I thought that was really interesting. I'm curious, let's just start with that.

How has being a professional or competitive eSports game helped you in your career?

SPEAKER_02
Dicky, you probably have a similar answer. I feel like all of it can get boiled down to one thing, which is, video games increased my threshold for pain. I think my ability to endure boring tasks on the pursuit to achieve something is like world class.

I think that is a very difficult skill for a lot of people to just sit in front of your computer and do the boring thing, because you want one item upgrade and it's going to cost you 78 painful hours to get there. That was my whole childhood. And now you just see that play out and everything.

Entrepreneurship is literally that all the time.

SPEAKER_01
And it's funny because when we first met, we didn't know that we had such similar backgrounds, but I played professional Call of Duty 4. And before that, I played more hours of RuneScape. My entire childhood was based on video games.

I picked up sports, luckily, in high school. We were like three or four years too early, because Twitch was not a thing. You could not record your screen and cell phones didn't really have high quality video cameras.

So you couldn't like, I remember the idea of having a capture card where you could record your screen to play it back. But if I was like three years younger, I never would have played sports. I never would have, I would have just become a Twitch streamer, because that's all I wanted to do is play video games.

But we're a little bit before our time. But I mean, my answer is pretty much the same. I to this day learned more playing RuneScape about business, economies, working with a team, monotonous work than I learned in college or really anything.

And I think running an online business is pretty much like playing a video game, except you don't stack, you know, digital gold. You can stack real gold and do cool things with it in the real world. So it's like, at the end of the day, one, both things, you're kind of just clicking buttons for a lot of it.

But one of them, the rewards are a little bit better.

SPEAKER_00
I mean, you're still seeing a number on a screen go up, you know, whether you're logging into Starcraft or you're logging into Chase, you know, instead of gold, it's USD. It's still kind of the same. And I think it's Haki McCormick who calls it the great online game.

How we're all playing this online game. And I think there's something to be said about people who are obsessed with games and people who are really good at the Internet. Would you agree? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02
I mean, I think one of the most surprising things for me is how many times when I share that little tidbit, you know, I was a really competitive World of Warcraft player as a teenager. A lot of people respond with, oh, so was I in XYZ situation. I'll never forget, I moved to LA in 2017.

And I found myself at this big fancy dinner up in the hills and all these really accomplished people there, Lady Gaga's designers there, like all these random really successful people. And we're having this dinner and we all were going around introducing ourselves and the guy who hosted the dinner shared that tidbit about me. And the guy opposite me who had built a massive ad agency turns to me and goes, oh, no way.

I was the guild leader of one of the biggest guilds in World of Warcraft of all time. And like that happens constantly in the entrepreneurship world. It's like the background in gaming clearly primes your brain for certain skills, for certain ways of thinking, for certain threshold of pain, for strategy, for learning rules, then bending rules.

You know, it's like video games prime all of that.

SPEAKER_01
I think you could almost go like a level above that and say it's not even video games, but it's just obsessive personalities. And for young kids, there's not very many ways to direct that obsessive personality other than video games and maybe music, right? Because you don't have enough autonomy. And so I think it's more rather than video games have just been a vehicle to apply that obsessive personality.

And then you get into the real world. It's like, oh, I can take this and apply it to solving problems as an entrepreneur. Like, of course, I'm going to choose that path.

And growing up, I always thought my obsessive personality was kind of a bug rather than a feature because I think school, other parents, society in general discourages that kind of like obsession or intensity where I'd pick up a new thing and I'd only do that for months and get as good as it is. I could quickly and I always say, my parents let me do whatever I wanted. Like if I wanted to play 15 hours of video games, I could as long as I was doing well in school where a lot of other parents wouldn't let their kids obsess over anything.

Right. Instead, they would just let them they wanted them so well rounded where they didn't end up building any kind of real, you know, obsessive skill. And so they get in the real world and that is rewarded by working for just a company or a regular corporate job, I think.

SPEAKER_00
So you both know obsess about building audiences and writing on the internet. Why, why, why obsess over that?

SPEAKER_02
Dick, I'll let you feel that one first.

SPEAKER_01
Mine was a way of exploring opportunities. And so my background working on Wall Street, I started in 2018, Robin, I graduated college and realized like a year in that that wasn't the path that I was going to take forever. I looked around and saw guys in their early thirties and one specific example, ask his boss to go to his son's little league game.

And his boss said no. And that was about a year in and I knew that I wasn't going to stick. I was not going to be able to work for someone else for a long time.

But rather than just quit, I said, how what's an easy way to explore opportunities and it was just putting myself out there and becoming easy to find. Right. So for me, I started doing that with just a newsletter and the time at coal, a time at you, time at 95% of the people that I talked to on a weekly basis now. And so the goal of ship 30 is to help as many people experience that as possible, right? Or maybe they're, I love this idea of the internet democratizing access to friendship where if you grew up and you were, this goes back to what we were saying of being obsessed with certain things and you didn't have a way of meeting other people that were obsessed in the same thing as you, you thought you were the odd one out.

But the internet has made it where I would have loved to have had a blog or something writing on Twitter or wherever as a younger person, because I would have found so many more like minded people along the way. And so that's why I'm writing to this day is I'm still continuing to meet cool people and all that compounds over time. So if I can help as many people as possible, unlock their creative writing ability, which then goes to unlock new opportunities, like that sounds like an awesome mission to kind of build around.

And that's our goal, our mission to help a million people start doing it because we know if we help a million people start writing, the number of new connections and opportunities and education that will come from that is huge.

SPEAKER_02
The nuance I think that is worth pointing out because there's there's so much talk around how do you build an audience benefits of building an audience we all understand it. But I think what gets lost is it really is not about the size of the audience it's not about the number and a perfect example is Dickie and my relationship when we got connected. I've been doing this for a long time I've been writing on the internet for a really long time and I've gone through multiple platforms and multiple cycles and multiple you see people rise and then they get burned out and new classes of creators and new like, I've been doing this for over a decade like it's just the same patterns over and over again.

And when Dickie and I got connected. I remember what's the first thing I did. I clicked on his Twitter profile because I was like who's this guy I just got connected to we got connected in a cold email through a mutual friend.

I don't know if you remember that Twitter profile Dickie probably had, I remember 800 followers, right. But when I started to look what I saw beyond just how big is your audience what I saw were good habits. I saw someone who was actively writing on the internet I saw someone who was trying to share things that were interesting to them and valuable to other readers.

Because I've been doing this for so long I could see that data point projected out into the future and go Dickie has 800 followers today he's going to lap everybody. Because I just know I have that pattern recognition. And so the thing for me is it's not actually about building an audience what it is is it's about understanding it's what you said about Paki and the great online game.

We're all playing the game, whether we realize it or not consciously unconsciously when you meet someone what's the first thing you do you look them up on the internet and what you find dictates how you perceive that person, we're all playing it. But everyone's focus is on the follower count. And really that's like one small data point in the whole game.

It's really about is this person playing. Are they playing consciously or unconsciously. Are they putting things out there that are valuable 1000 followers or 100,000 followers when you click on their stuff.

Are you interested. There's a lot of people I know with half a million followers where I'm like you write really not interesting things. There's a lot of people with 1000 followers I click on I go wow this is brilliant I want to sink my teeth into it.

So it's like going beyond the benefit of building an audience and more of the are you playing the game consciously such that it unlocks new opportunities for your life.

SPEAKER_00
I'm a audience maximalist like building an audience maximalist. And I think everyone should do it. You know I hear often from people who don't write on the internet or who don't who don't have a conscious effort of creating an audience.

And they're like hey why are you not writing on Twitter and they say I don't want to be cringe. I feel like there's growing cringiness vibe that's going around that's holding people back from participating.

SPEAKER_01
If someone thinks that they're thinking they're far more important and that people are paying way more attention to them than they actually are. I don't want to be cringe behind that has this assumption that when I put something out everyone that I know is going to read it. They're going to study every word of it.

They're going to judge me but the truth is most people are way way way too caught up in themselves. And so the only reason someone would be quote unquote scared to be cringe if that is if they're sitting on the other side. Not writing and just judging everyone that they see.

Right so it's I'm worried I'm gonna look cringe because I'm sitting here reading all these people and I'm like oh that's cringe that's cringe but. At the end of the day they're putting themselves out there they're unlocking opportunities and you're the one. Paying with your attention by reading it.

Right so rather than have this fear of like oh I don't want people to think I'm cringe it's. Why don't you just try putting yourself out there and recognize where it where tips is they're so scared to look cringe and then suddenly they're upset that no one's reading any of their stuff when they get started. And so it's the opposite side of the coin right they don't look cringe they just don't look like anything because the truth is no one reads any of the things you put out in the beginning so you just kind of have to get started.

SPEAKER_02
Yeah I totally agree with all that and Greg I would say I'm an audience maximalist to was the first thing I realized as a 17 year old on the Internet I was like if you have an audience you get more stuff.

SPEAKER_00
Period I thought you were going to say you're cringe that's what I thought you I thought. I'm really cringe guys I'm really cringe and I'm putting it out there.

SPEAKER_02
No I mean look I don't think anyone disagrees with the statement if you have an audience you get more opportunities. Period right yes but but the nuance what gets missed is it's the same as waking up every day and going I want to be rich. There isn't anyone on earth that if you gave them the option to be rich tomorrow would say no.

Right but if all you did was walk around and say I just want to be rich you'd be cringe just like if you say I just want to build an audience it's a little cringe. But the reason it's cringe is because what you're talking about is I want the outcome without caring about the process that's what you're saying. And so the issue is when people go all this focus on audience audience audience audience is an outcome.

It's an outcome of what of learning of helping people of sharing things that are valuable. So the cringe part is someone going I just care about the number not I care about helping someone because the moment someone goes I really care about educating these people I really care about solving these problems or I really care about no one's going to look at them and be like that's stupid. Right so it's all it's this over rotation on I want the outcome without caring and being connected to the process.

SPEAKER_00
Yeah where where this is coming from is I have a friend. His name is Daniel Singer and I saw his Twitter bio recently. And his Twitter bio is imagine taking Twitter seriously.

And I feel like there's this growing class of people who are like him where they they don't want to look like they don't want to do threads for example because threads are cringe even though we know threads work.

SPEAKER_02
All right when I used to play World of Warcraft I was very good at the game very very good at the game. And I would duel other players or we would compete against their arena team or we would play them in battlegrounds and just crush them. Do you know what they would say back afterwards.

Imagine taking this game seriously. That's that's what you say when you don't know how to play the game. So when someone sits there and goes I'm upset that I'm not winning what they do is they point and they criticize everybody and go you're cringe imagine taking that seriously.

Look at you and it's like all you're doing is just admitting that you don't know how to play the game. That's all you're doing. So when so even the fact that we're talking about this it's like we're basically debating why the people who don't know how to play the game don't want to play the game.

Are like saying that it's a bad game. Dickie and I are too busy trying to help other people play the game. You know yeah why give it attention.

SPEAKER_00
I mean I don't want to put words in Daniel's mouth but people like him they might look at you know playing the game is like oh I don't need to play the game. I don't need to play the game because I'm already a founder of a company that's doing really well and I'm I need to you know spend all my time focusing on you know solutions to problems building my team raising venture capital.

SPEAKER_02
But that's a different game. That's a different game. And what ghost writing taught me is there is a drastic difference between doing something and being really good at explaining how to do it.

And so a lot of times when I would go straight for a founder they'd be accomplished. But then when I asked them can you explain how you solve these problems. They can't articulate it.

Right. So they got good at doing it but they didn't build the skill of being able to articulate it. And so what a lot of times right what does that person do.

They go oh the people over there articulating it super cringe. No you're probably just mad that that's a game that you're not winning. That's a game that you're not playing right.

Just like think of the other side. There's all the people that go imagine taking your start up seriously. It's just the other side criticizing the other game right.

It's everybody in their own vacuum criticizing the other vacuum and it's like these are all just niche games. Just play the game that you want to play and let other people play their games.

SPEAKER_00
Is there any truth to cringiness Twitter. Of course. I just want you to say it.

I want you to say it. Like tell me you know tell me how you feel about that. And do you think the people that are writing you know the you know Twitter is a top university.

You know the top you know these threads that we always see that are basically repurposed time and time again. When you see those threads like what do you think you know as professionals do you are you like wow they're just playing the game or are you like. I think they should be playing another game.

SPEAKER_01
I think it's a way of playing the game. Is that the optimal way depends what game you're playing. If their goal is to play the dopamine slot machine that we've all played and we all do a Twitter and write a thread that gets 50,000 likes but every person who reads it has no interest in following you along as a reader.

Sure. Right if you only write threads about Google Docs and you know Chrome extensions. You're not building any kind of personal relationship but it's okay if you choose to play that game.

You can do it successfully you're going to get a lot of followers now if the goal of the game is maximum number of followers sure but I don't think that's a very smart goal to have for the game right because. If you have 200,000 followers and you've never sold anything. What is that going to do and none of them they all followed you one time for one thing and then the next thing you write they're like.

I've no why did I follow this person again they don't remember anything you wrote from a personal perspective. Versus when you're telling your stories are providing educational content right look I've written threads on Google Docs and on Ted talks and on YouTube videos and they've worked but it's all about you don't build your entire life around that. But again I don't think it's it's not worth spending time like judging the people playing that game right instead you should just play your own game and say they are playing theirs I'm going to play mine and.

Rather than give them the mental headspace of like oh my gosh I can't imagine writing a thread like that it's like. Why don't you just focus a little bit more on on what you're doing rather than kind of what other people are doing my take on it is.

SPEAKER_00
I respect games in general. As a game player I respect games putting it out there. You know do I think the best way to get your name out there is to essentially.

Copy formats like copy a thread that's worked for example this you know the one that we've all seen around you know Twitter is better than 99.9% of universities and just kind of like copy and pasting. I don't think it's a great approach that being said like someone like Blake Burge who authentically writes threads on Excel and Google sheets.

And creates new type new content you know in the game format like in threads you know not only is he able to like. Build an audience of 400,000 people in like two years which is wild he's also able to like. You know he quit his job he's like living on like a farming community like his dream with like 1500 other people he's selling like.

Google sheets and other digital assets and making me a great living from it like when you hear stories like that it just like gives you the warm and fuzzy feeling.

SPEAKER_01
Yeah Blake was got his start in chip 30 he's one of ship 30 biggest success stories so the first course he took was ship 30. And the number of pieces that he's written to get to where he is. He's talked about a ton of different things and then he said wow people like when I write about Excel and there's just no world where someone who's living an awesome life now because of writing on the Internet looks around and is like you know what I'm really worried that like this group of VCs thinks I'm cringe.

Like that does not go through his head one time he's like I'm making a living living my dream life I got to quit my corporate job like all these things because I wrote about something that I had experience in that sounds like an absolute dream to me so it's all perspective right. And most people just think they're too smart or too cool and it's all a place of ego if you look around at other people doing things on Twitter like on your just judging them so I'm always kind of of the perspective from Jim debt more that's if you spot it you got it. Which means the way you kind of think about other people and how you project on them is always projecting from the way you feel about yourself or whatever it is you're doing so I don't know I don't spend any time judging other people and how they're living their life like you look at some of these people on Twitter who have.

Their entire thing on Twitter has become making fun of people writing on Twitter but all they're doing now is trying to get likes on Twitter. The same way the other person is doing they're just appealing to a different group of people. Right so it's like you're playing the same game you just don't recognize it and for some reason think you're more important or smarter or whatever just being a professional shit poster.

And it's negative. Why would you want to live your life like that like waking up like you know what I'm going to go generate internet clicks today by being mean. Imagine waking up with that like predisposition it just sounds like a horrible life so I always I look at those people from a extreme place of empathy like man.

I'm very glad that that is not how I wake up and choose to live.

SPEAKER_00
A lot of people ask me Greg how do you build products that foster community. Well I've got good news that's exactly what they check out does my company we partner with the largest brands in the world and fast pay startups to design products that resonate with your community. We add a couple interesting clients every single year so if you're interested and that sounds like you email front desk at late checkout dot studio with what you're working on what you need help with.

And don't forget to mention the where it happens pod. Thank you. So if you're listening to this and you want to double down on on writing you know what do you recommend the first steps are.

So for example I didn't know that Blake basically wrote about a bunch of things and then narrowed in on Excel and Google Sheets like to me he was just always the Excel guy.

SPEAKER_02
So this happens with anything right writing is just it's a vehicle but this is true for wanting to improve or get better at anything in life. And when you first start trying to learn how to do anything you are operating from a lot of assumptions. You're operating from the assumption that you'll enjoy it.

You're operating from the assumption that you know what you want to do with it. You're operating from the assumption that you have the patience to get through the first three steps. You know.

And so a big focus of ship 30 and why we've constructed it as a writing challenge is because the goal is to accelerate essentially two years three years five years of learning into 30 days. And so for example one of the biggest assumptions that someone makes at the beginning of deciding I want to start writing is they assume they know what they want to write about. So you walk into the whole thing and you go I want to write about productivity.

And then you write about it for three days and you realize that's not actually what I want to write about. And part of the learning process is accelerating through those moments so that you can figure out is this what you actually want to write about or no. And then the other side is is this what people find valuable.

Right. So you write about productivity for five days in a row 10 days in a row and like very lukewarm and then you go and tell the story of how you explored Machu Picchu and what it taught you about living a fulfilling life. And it goes viral.

Right. And then you go oh now I have a data point. Oh something about that topic is really resonating the thing I thought people wanted isn't actually the thing that people want.

And so a huge part of the process this is why we have this saying you can't steer a stationary ship. What a lot of people do is they sit in their room they sit at their desk they draw this huge map they go before I take one single step. Here's my path to a giant successful career on the Internet where no one will judge me and everything I do is perfect and I will build a giant audience.

Right. And then they take one step and they have to confront all these assumptions. And instead a much better approach is to just begin right about a lot of different things.

See how you feel about it. See how it feels for the reader. Is it something they're enjoying.

Is it something you're enjoying. Navigate as you go along.

SPEAKER_00
That's the whole idea. What do you think about you know writing as Greg Eisenberg versus writing as at the community guy. There's this growing trend around people picking anonymous anonymous accounts.

You know I follow this guy named at the car dealership guy. Cars and stuff like that and where the prices are going and yeah I'm just curious how how you think about that.

SPEAKER_02
There's definitely an interesting trend on person or anonymous. But I think there's two really important things to point out here. One is either way it's a person.

The community guy the community gal the community whatever right which is very different than. At Avis rental car right is very there's a difference between a entity and a person whether the person is their name or anonymous point point a and I think we always want to listen to people more than we want to listen to entities. The second though which I find really ironic is this idea of I'm the community guy I'm the product gal I'm the whatever right.

And it's important to understand what are they doing they are literally naming their niche. Right which is the whole thing the whole thing is not for you it's not it's not for Dickie to be famous. It's not for me to be famous it's not for Greg to be famous it's for each one of us to become known for a niche that we own.

It's it's to be known for a category of thing so whenever someone goes oh I'm the community person or I'm the product designer person what they're trying to do is they're trying to signal their niche so that it's easy to understand why do you pay attention to me. That's the whole point.

SPEAKER_00
So it sounds like if you want to double down on writing step one is picking a topic. Step two is picking a niche. Is step three pick a personality.

SPEAKER_01
Step three is right every day for a year and then pick your head up and see if it worked. Like see who you are. But seriously because you're going to learn so much about what you like to write about what people like to read.

And so where most people will go is okay this sounds great sounds like I could pick a niche and then I'm going to go spend the next six months creating the perfect website the perfect blog the perfect content plan I'm going to have it all mapped out rather than just hitting publish on something tomorrow. And so that's why we say this idea of shipping daily you have to be putting ideas out for a year and if you commit to writing about one thing for an entire year you're going to get really good at that thing. And you're going to build distribution around it where right now I'm not talking about writing quite as much as I did in 2020 and 2021.

Now I'm talking about things that I'm more well not well rounded but a more diverse list of topics. But the only reason people are paying attention to that is because I talked about a singular thing pretty much every single day for a year and a half. And Jack Butcher has a great quote it's build distribution and then build whatever you want.

And so if I had only written about what I'm writing about now people would have come to me and they wouldn't have built any kind of relationship with me because it was harder to latch on versus when you say hey I'm going to help you solve this one specific problem. It's much easier to start with a niche and then expand than to think oh but I have so many interests you just need to pick one and extend the time horizon and say I'm going to write on the Internet for 20 years. I don't have to figure it all out right now I can pick one thing and write about it for three and then pick another thing and write about it for I think too many people and myself included when I was getting started felt like I had to have it all figured out right away rather than recognizing this was going to be a long term game.

And that the only thing I needed to do is get started and the rest kind of takes care of itself when you're putting out enough data getting feedback all that.

SPEAKER_00
I've been seeing you tweet more lifestyle content really you know I saw you tweet. There is simply no better way to prepare for the week ahead and steak eggs potatoes and spinach and then you took a picture of your steak and eggs and potatoes and spinach. And first of all I look amazing like I don't know what you put in your eggs but sign me up.

And second of all I feel like if you can post about steak and eggs you've made it in the sense of like as a writer or as a content creator when you're able to create lifestyle content where you're basically for me as a content creator I think about like how do I build audience first and then build affinity second. So affinity is another word for trust I want to increase that amount of trust and I feel like lifestyle content a lot of the time makes people feel more connected to the creator is that something that you're consciously doing.

SPEAKER_01
Well the mistake I made when I just started out was thinking I could only talk about lifestyle content and I was going to grow because the truth was no one they come for some specific problem you're solving for them and then they build a relationship with you. Based on the tangential things you talk about not the reverse right if I'd only tweeted out pictures of my steak and eggs I'd have 100 followers and that was it. Right but instead I've helped so many people solve problems in their life through my writing that now I can tweet about just things I'm generally interested in and they've come to trust me as a person.

So it's the dream of course is where you just live your life on a day to day basis and your writing is a byproduct of exploring your unique interests. And then all the readers are reading anything you put out just because they're interested in you but that I'm still not at that point and still focus most of my writing on solving problems but like I think the long term sustainable way to write has to be things that you're extremely interested in learning and continuing to grow rather than only talking about one thing forever but I do think you have to start there because otherwise you're not going to generate any kind of it's like the cold start problem. You can't talk about things that interest everyone in the beginning because someone would come to your profile and say I don't know what I'm here for but now it's like you build up enough of a general readership then you can kind of talk about anything.

SPEAKER_02
I essentially agree the thing with this topic is it is such a nuanced thing right I think it's so easy to just go. You get famous and then you can do whatever but everything sits inside a context right the context is the niche that you are creating within. So why is Dickie's posting steak and eggs interesting well let's follow the logic line the logic line is I reader follow Dickie because I want to start writing online.

Next point Dickie treats writing online like an athlete writes about that. Next logic line Dickie must structure his life in a very disciplined way in order to treat writing online like an athlete such that I can learn how to write online. Right fourth logic point Dickie posts steak and eggs for breakfast that's kind of interesting maybe I should start eating steak and eggs for breakfast so that I can treat my writing like a student.

I can treat my writing like a sport so that I can get better at writing right that's literally what's going through the reader's head. And so I think there's a huge logical fallacy where you you look at all these big creators I've watched a dozen cycles this is exactly what happens writer starts creator starts experiments gains traction doubles down on a niche becomes known for a niche they own. Thinks that everyone's following them for them not the niche.

Abandoned the niche. And then loses engagement over time. Every over and over it's just the same loop and it's our human nature to think we are special.

The reader cares about me call the reader cares about Dickie the reader cares about you Greg and in actuality what the reader cares about is you in the context of the niche that solves a problem for them. And the moment you step out of that niche. Completely and you start thinking it's just about you and how special you are and how famous you are and how big your audience is the great dissension begins.

And just it happens over and over and over again. If Ryan holiday tomorrow publishes a book in his niche stoicism it's a it's a number one bestseller well if Ryan holiday tomorrow publishes a book outside that niche. Very very different result.

SPEAKER_00
I mean. Ryan holiday didn't start off as like some well known stoic. Like I've known Ryan.

No he built it. I met Ryan when he was the director of marketing at American apparel.

SPEAKER_02
I'm super familiar with this whole story right but what happened starts marketing little bit attraction doubles down second book does OK. Ghost experiments with a different data point obstacle is the way very successful doubles down doubles down doubles down now category King stoicism. If tomorrow Ryan starts only making YouTube videos about his life his breakfasts and his farm animals.

Whole thing goes like this.

SPEAKER_00
The crazy the crazy thing about the rise of Ryan holiday is that Ryan holiday is more famous than Marcus Aurelius and Seneca. To most people today because I'm yeah he's the one who's delivering the message the message. About yep stoicism in a way that people can understand nowadays via Tiktok via Twitter via Instagram via his books.

I think what's really courageous that Ryan did was he had a really good thing going with marketing and PR and he said to himself and his editors or whatever like I'm going to go and he picked stoicism when stoicism was like not a real category basically.

SPEAKER_02
100% because the mistake would have been him going into Tim Ferriss's category and going I'm going to compete with Tim Ferriss losers game. Right. Most people I've studied the shit out of his story because I think it's fascinating and most people don't realize that his mentor is Robert Greene. What did Robert Greene do right he went and did the same thing with all the Machiavellian stuff and mastery and war and all that right so Ryan holiday takes the blueprint does it with a new category and evangelizes it.

But the point the point is Ryan holiday is famous because of how he's built stoicism. Ryan holiday is not famous because he posts lifestyle content. So lifestyle can be woven in sure it's cool to see what someone that you learn and study from and enjoy following it's cool to see what they're doing.

But you are not what matters to the reader unless you're Kim Kardashian right you are not what matters what matters is the category are they interested in the niche. Does your niche solve a problem for them. So your value sits in that niche and the moment that that context changes the way that the reader the listener the viewer changes the way they see you.

SPEAKER_00
Does the chase ever end like should should should Ryan holiday be thinking about what's next in a new category or is this it for him.

SPEAKER_02
His choice right. I mean but anyone who starts to experience it. That Dickie and I are experiencing it right now you've you've experienced it with community the moment you start unlocking rewards in the niche the moment you realize oh like Dickie and I aren't the category Kings of all writing.

It's just one very specific subcategory start writing. That's it. You want to go learn how to write a Pulitzer Prize winning novel you go somewhere else.

If you want to learn how to start writing on the Internet this period done we win right here. And once you start unlocking rewards in a niche you realize that the switching cost goes up. Right. So the more that you dominate a niche at this point if Ryan holiday went to his publisher and went I'm doing a hard pivot pivoting out of stoicism. That's like a code read publisher calls in 12 people being like we've got a serious problem on our hands.

Right. Because there's a huge switching cost. And so can you do it.

Yes. Do people do it all the time. But does it take time and do you have to go through then a whole reorienting of who is interested and who's not 100% because you're not what's special.

SPEAKER_00
The niche is what's special. And the main moment of what you said was you're not focused on writing you're focused on the sub niche of start writing which. Yes. Sounds so small. It sounds like.

Yep. Start writing that's like other people are going to do it. You know other people are going to own that and it's so small like why you can't build a business around that.

Why would you why would you think so small. That's what you know goes through people's brains but you guys are making millions of dollars on the start writing piece. And I also think that what enough people don't talk about is.

You could move adjacent to adjacent categories once you own the category. Yes.

SPEAKER_02
The category. Yeah what's what's the next logical step start copywriting. Start email writing put the word start in front of anything I remember Dickie and I had a whole conversation I remember it was a year and a half ago.

And it was like a light bulb moment it was like this is all we have to do all we have to do is educate people on start. That's it. And most creators would be.

Smart to do the same thing for their business. Right is is it's not just the topic. It's where in the journey are you and what's the biggest funnel.

Where do you create the most demand. It's all the people who haven't started yet. Beginning.

Right so take any niche any category anything Web three get more specific start Web three community get more specific start a community. And if all you did as Dickie and I are learning if all you did was drill into that for three years you would realize that you have more work to do not less. Because the more specific you get the more problems you uncover the more people you realize you can help the larger the demand creation opportunity.

Right. It's a great it's a great like golden rule is whenever someone thinks something is too specific. That's usually the signal that that's where the gold mine is.

SPEAKER_01
It's funny because start writing sounds small until you realize that the total addressable market is everyone who has not started writing which is anyone who's not writing and there's not that many people writing. So it sounds small but you go oh wow. The the layer zero is everyone on the other side of that and so in whatever niche it is most potential customers will be in getting started.

You don't have to choose that way like there's a lot of B2B businesses who only help people who are at five million dollars a year to get to 20 or something like that right. Or you have to have this number of followers or that like it choosing where to help people based on their level of experience is totally up to you but. We went with beginners and why did we go with beginners.

In the very beginning I was such a beginner that I had no ability to write very well but what I was really good at was building a writing habit. Like ship 30 before Cole and I even got together wasn't even like start writing online it was like build a writing habit. Because I had no ex Cole has been writing since 2014 and so when we partnered it was like OK.

This is how you get the ideas that were in Cole's book into the whole world right. But before start writing online it was just build a daily writing habit. Because I had no experience or ability to teach anything like that.

So it was even more niche to start like you don't even have to put your ideas out there. It's just how do you start writing every day. So I think the more specific you can get on level of experience.

All it does is make people it forces people to make a choice whether or not they want to start or not whether or not they're at that level of experience where they qualify for.

SPEAKER_00
One of the most interesting things that you guys do is not only running an education business you're running a SAS technology company called type share. I just went to the website. Obviously that the first thing I see is everything you need to and this is like you know in red versus everything in black everything you need to start writing online and they're emphasizing start.

So I think that's a shocker. Why did you decide to start a SAS business and what are your hopes for it.

SPEAKER_02
Well I think it's worth recognizing that Dickie and I didn't start type share type shares original founder is Sam shore. He built basically the first version of it on his own. Maybe after like two or three cohorts of ship 30 was very early.

We saw him do this on Twitter and we're like wow this is really cool and reached out and basically said hey if you're going to build this you know as an indie developer why don't we partner up. We'll bring all the customers and you continue to build the platform will will obviously help build the platform because we know how we can turn our education into SAS. And let's just create a separate company so we did we created a separate company and me Dickie and Sam are co founders in that company and it basically plugs into ship 30.

And so the idea is right you take ship 30 and then everyone in ship 30 is basically getting educated on how to use the SAS platform thereafter. And I remember Greg the first time I explained that to you your brain just exploded or like that is genius. And yeah I mean I think an honest answer is we'll see where it goes you know I mean Dickie and I neither of us have done SAS companies before there's a huge learning curve it's very very different than education.

Ship 30 and type share is a really they compliment each other well and I think the key is if you're going to build things if you're going to build multiple things they have to work together. Right because if they don't work together then there's no compounding it's just you're signing yourself up for more work elsewhere. But because ship 30 is basically the lead gen for type share, you can rationalize spending time on both because both benefit each other type share benefits ship 30 retention and ship 30 benefits type share customer acquisition.

Right so you almost think of it just like two different departments in the same company almost.

SPEAKER_01
And both are extremely lean teams where Cole and I have been patient in hiring so we have one or really a handful of employees but one core and an assistant with ship 30 and then Sam is the lead developer and we have a contractor developer on working on it with him we don't have these big teams we haven't raised any money. This all goes back to which game we want to play could we go raise a big round for type share and hire a bunch of engineers and accelerate that process probably but that sounds like signing up for a little bit of a job again which I'm not sure we want to do. And could we scale ship 30 to triple what it is now if we went and hired a bunch of people right away.

Maybe but it's also a lot of fun to operate with a very small team and probably at the expense of growth and pursuing different opportunities and so we're extending the time horizon and saying yeah we'll get to that and we'll get to that and we'll get to that. And it's very freeing to run a business that way where it's yes this is working now despite not doing this not doing that not starting that thing not starting that thing. And so rather than look at it is like oh we could be doing way more it's like we will do way more we just expand extend the time horizon with which we do all those and we're going to be able to grow.

Forever because.

SPEAKER_00
There's this trend right now about so so low pernurship. Ever you know so many people want to be so low pernurs businesses of one, you know, previous and the previous cycle it was I want to raise as much money as possible I want to business of a million. I saw a term recently called micro entrepreneurs which I which I found interesting, which is sort of in between, I want to swing for the fences and I want to live in the forest by myself, not have contact with anyone, but also have a business type thing.

And micro entrepreneurs is like, you know, the five 1015 20 person business that's profitable that is highly leveraged that relies on audiences. And I think we're going to see a huge surge in micro entrepreneurship and that's a great example of like, who is owning that category. Like, why doesn't someone go and like, put a stake there.

Like, if Justin Welsh is the solo pernurship guy and is making seven figures a year and has incredible audience. You know, someone could easily be that Justin Welsh but for micro entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_01
I think Michael Conjure Capra. I can't pronounce his last name but he tweeted it so the printers or one person teams micro printers or like 10 person teams. I sent that tweet to him via DM.

I was like, I love this language. And this was a couple days ago, because I think that is where people are headed because in solar pernurship you quickly realize like you basically have a glorified job for a lot of it, because you're doing everything. So why wouldn't you potentially want to zoom out and have a little bit of a team where you're able to not the thing about solar pernurship is you can't stop doing all the things you're doing without your livelihood being completely.

At risk, not that we would ever stop doing anything but I think it's worth recognizing whether you have a glorified job or a business and solar pernurship to me is you just are working for yourself versus running a business and it's interesting to think about all the different ways we could educate on how we do things as a team call on that front. But that to me sounds way more fun to have a 10 person team a lot of autonomy. You really know the people you're working with you enjoy working with them.

SPEAKER_02
I totally agree. And I raised a small round for my first company. And we were thinking of doing the whole VC route and I took all these meetings and you know kind of projected it all forward.

And I think I and a lot of entrepreneurs have woken up and are waking up to the realization that every time you raise more money, your success chances go down, not up. And that's the big aha is that every time you you move the goalpost your the chances of you actually having a meaningful outcome go from you know 20% to 10% to 5% to 1% to half of 1% to and when you start to net it out, you realize it is significantly easier to make a million dollars a year. And that is to have an exit that pays you one to 10 million dollars.

And then when you have that exit. Well now your cash machine is gone. So now you have to go do it again.

And so I think it's different games for different people. I know some entrepreneurs who play this play the VC game exceedingly well and they've made fortunes doing it. But I think it's very easy to look at it and go that's easy.

And it's not and you have way higher chances. Creating financial abundance for yourself, putting yourself in positions of power and leverage and opportunity by building a one to three to five million dollar business or being a solo preneur making half million or million bucks a year. You have so many more freedoms.

So many a lot of which aren't financial right the freedom to just wake up when you want to wake up to go for walks with your significant other. You know, I think the post COVID world revealed to a lot of people like hey, I'd rather trade my 600k salary for a 300k salary if it means I have my sanity. Right there's a lot to be said for that.

SPEAKER_00
The biggest takeaway I have from this conversation is it's not the great online game we're playing. It's the great online games that we're playing. And it's about how do you think about which games do I want to play in life and in work and being creating systems to basically go after those games.

That's like that's my takeaway. Gents, always a pleasure if people want to learn more about ship 30 and you guys, where can they do it?

SPEAKER_01
I think the easiest place to go is start riding online.com. You can download our free 13,000 word ultimate guide to start writing like we talked about. It's got everything you need to write on any platform.

All our best frameworks just give it away so start writing online.com and then ship 30 for 30.com if you want to check out the course.

Next cohorts in April and if you're listening to this later, I have cohorts running all the time and if you're looking to get started like we talked about, no better place. And I'm at Dickie Bush on Twitter, LinkedIn, spend way too much time on both those so that's where you can find me.

SPEAKER_00
Thanks so much guys for coming on. You're gonna have to come back on again. And by the way, I'm drinking a non alcoholic beer.

If you're watching this on YouTube. I saw that Dickie was coming onto this and Dickie doesn't drink. And I opened the fridge and I was inspired by Dickie and I was like, you know, I'm having non alcoholic drinks.

So cheers.